PenicillinX57

Join Date 02/2006

Speed and Gameplay Mechanics

Hey everybody, I've just discovered Sins and am quite interested in what I'm hearing about it! However, I'd like to know a little bit more about how the game actually plays. I know it involves building a giant galactic empire and crushing your enemies (like any good strategy game) but there are some specific genre trends that I'm hoping Sins can kick.

Specifically, how detailed is the base building and the mechanism for managing it? Are the bases going to be built like they are in RTS games (Starcraft, Total Anihilation, etc), or will they be managed more like a turn based empire game (Civilization, GalCiv, etc.)? One thing that I find is that the base-building in typical RTS games is usually more robust, but comes at the price of having to be babysat. To build a base you have to select a "builder" unit, give it an order, and then place the buildings one by one. In games like Total Annihilation (or the upcoming Supreme Commander) this quickly turns into an exercise in frustration, because you're juggling what "builder" units are working on what projects. Oftentimes, your builder units just sit idle because you're too busy to give them new orders!

I far prefer the base building system found in turn-based games. You have a screen dedicated to that base and simple commands for how to allocate the resources of that base at any given time. You don't have to hunt for builder units, and you don't have to constantly give them new orders. You just tell your base what you want, and the virtual citizens make it happen. For fine economic control you can set toggle bars for how much of your budget is going to production, how much to research, and how much to economic expansion.

Where does Sins fall in this regard? Is the gameplay a fast click-fest ala Supreme Commander? Is it a real-time GalCiv2 with awesome tactical battles? Or is this something completely different?

Either way, it's looking awesome and I'll probably be signing up for the beta, so keep up the good work!

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I think the basebuilding aspect is more abstracted like you would find in a turn based game. Of course, in this game, your "base" is a whole planet.

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

I think the base building aspect is more abstracted like you would find in a turn based game. Of course, in this game, your "base" is a whole planet.

From what I've read, there are no bases on the the planet that you can see, but there are ones in space, in terms of space stations and planarity defenses.

This game reminds me a lot of Star Wars Empire at War, excellent space battles, but without the lame turn based aspect and horrible land battles.

Remember this game is a REAL TIME 4x (eXplore, eXpand, eXploit and eXterminate)

This game looks to have a killer story also!

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Ashbery76

Join Date 02/2002

+36

The space battles looked good in EAW but had very little depth,pretty much like the whole game.

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The base building well it matters what your talking about. This game is in real time, but theres a diffrence at building things on the ground and building them is space. So be a bit more specific.

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

The space battles looked good in EAW but had very little depth,pretty much like the whole game.

haha sooooo true

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EAW was made mostly for looks not strategy thats why you had the cinematics button.

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To clarify, don't think of the base building so much in terms of it being ground-based or space-based. Think of it more in terms of the actual tedium of the structure placement. Do you have to hand-place each individual factory, defense turret, and radar station, or is the entire base just a big, arbitrary mass?

In Starcraft, TA, SupCom, etc. you have to hand-place all your base structures. Adding to the tedium, you have to give the order to some type of builder unit. (Command and Conquer didn't have builder units, but you just placed structures where you wanted them). Regardless, you have to perform hundreds of mouse clicks to get a base looking the way you want it to.

In Civilization, GalCiv, etc. your "base" is a city that you simply order upgrades, research, and resources from. You don't have to mess with individual structure placement because that would be too tedious. The base more or less runs itself with you guiding it occasionally.

I'm guessing that in Sins the planetary bases are handled like they are in GalCiv, which would be a superior solution for a game of this scale. The orbital bases (the ones that can be engaged in combat) are what I'm wondering about. Do you build them up in real-time like any RTS game or do you treat them as abstract concepts? Basically, do you have to micromanage the base construction, or is the majority of the micromanagement focussed on the tactical fleet combat?

Whew, sorry about that being so long-winded

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Do you have to hand-place each individual factory, defense turret, and radar station, or is the entire base just a big, arbitrary mass?

I got this one:
ok, there is a hexagonal placement setup (either that or its been replaced by a layered orbital setup)
either way ground objects are unnaffected, except that you place them on a specific "tile" (i dont know if this affects OB, but I think it does)
anyway, space objects are placed BY YOU where you want.

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Blair Fraser

Join Date 10/2006

+292

You can hand place them or click a button to have the AI to place them for you. So really, it's up to you whether or not its more like Starcraft or more like GalCiv. I prefer to hand place my most important buildings and then autoplace everything else (esp if I'm busy elsewhere).

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2 questions:
do they have orbits?
and if they do are orbits affected by mass/proximity to planet (as in their speed)

I know its too much to ask for odd orbits (like pinched ovals, or the ones that make their solistices every 190 degrees...) but that WOULD be sweet.

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Yarlen

Join Date 01/2005

+367

No orbits as you suggest. The objects are in geostationary orbit over their planet.

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I prefer to hand place my most important buildings and then autoplace everything else (esp if I'm busy elsewhere)

sooo, am I correct in deducing that building placement matters? and that city planning has an effect on gameplay?

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As far as I gathered; not city planning but space placement.

There is no real geostationary orbit except over the Equator. All other "geostationary" objects in space travel above and below the Equator (because everything circles around the centre of gravity). Is that in the game or is there a simplification that lets us put totally stationary (relative to the planet) objects in space?

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Thanks for the answers guys. I do have one more question, though. What is the speed of the game like? I am sure it depends highly on the size of the map, but how long will a typical multiplayer match take? 15 minutes? An hour? Several hours? Do the bases and factories just fly right up like in most RTS games, or do things gradually build up over time? This obviously has an effect on the number and size of the combat engagements. Will there be lots of small skirmishes and rushes to destroy key base components a little at a time, or will the focus be on building up massive fleets and having a small number of large, decisive battles?

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The speed of the game varies with the size of the galaxy you pick, and the difficulty of your oponent. But, i would say that on average a game of this scale would take a few hours to finish, but again thats objective and relative to players and size of the galaxy.

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Anybody know any specifics about not just match length but the speed of the gameplay? Do the units crank out of your factories every few seconds, or does it take 10 minutes to build a single ship?

The speed of the building, combat, and movement greatly affects how the game actually plays. In Starcraft you can afford to just continually fling units at your opponent to harrass them. But in typical 4X turn based games you need to build up a considerable force and make a large strategic commitment before engaging the enemy.

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I think that ships will build in a few minutes, but buildings and starbases might actually take up to five or ten because they will have more strategic worth, but beyond that i dont know

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No orbits as you suggest. The objects are in geostationary orbit over their planet.

ok, that makes sense.
otherwise things would be mad difficult to manage.

and besides, I'm sure modders will make additions like that anyway.

Is that in the game or is there a simplification that lets us put totally stationary (relative to the planet) objects in space?

good question.

But in typical 4X turn based games you need to build up a considerable force and make a large strategic commitment before engaging the enemy.

I would like to keep the swarm element out of this. true, its a more than viable game strategy, but it doesnt work in terms of actual strategy in real life, and its just a braindead cheap way of fighting your opponent.
personally I like the idea of multiple large fleets in constant wrestling.

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The swarm strategy may not be possible because having one fleet makes your worlds vunerable to several small ones. These can destroy several worlds at once (even if some fail) while your one big fleet can destroy only one (who would guess

).

It seems as though Sins will have space big enough for the fleet to travel a long time from one system to another and this is what makes one big fleet impossible. It can't destroy enough in a time short enough to be profitable. The usual RTS games have exactly this drawback; the place is small enough for one big army to destroy the opponent in one go. Which means swarming.

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I'm talking less about "swarming" with one massive fleet and more about "rushing" with individual units. In games like StarCraft you can send a handful of units over to the enemy base to do some harassment early on. In Civilization, though, if you send units over to enemy cities one at a time you might as well just be throwing them away.

I HATE rushing in RTS games. Granted it's a viable strategy for a game in which you're trying to build a tiny field base and harrass the enemy's tiny little field base. But in a game of galactic conquering, I hope that the size of the force needed to actually perform combat is more significant. I don't want the enemy building 3 small fighters, sending them over to my base and utterly crippling me. The idea of that being feasible is just stupid. When you're working on a planetary scale, the defenses should be very stalwart.

By improving the planetary base defenses you can eliminate the click-fest gameplay that has players constantly rushing and harassing you with tiny forces. Then again, some people like this. Maybe the devs can chime in about their design philosophy?

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Well, I think thats impossible as I believe fighters have to be ferried by capital ships. Also, we have been told that suprelight travel is very slow with beginning technologies. Also, it looks like there are stationary fighter bases which are probably good against rushes. And if you really don't want rushes, just put many huge galaxies.

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In games like StarCraft you can send a handful of units over to the enemy base to do some harassment early on

as long as its not a "duh, I should do it" move. because if its so powerful that it completely shuts down your enemy in one go, or even cripples them powerfully its too good of a game element to be included.

I don't want the enemy building 3 small fighters, sending them over to my base and utterly crippling me.

yes... YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this sort of thing doesnt work in real life so WHY SHOULD IT WORK HERE???

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n games like StarCraft you can send a handful of units over to the enemy base to do some harassment early on. In Civilization, though, if you send units over to enemy cities one at a time you might as well just be throwing them away.

You're not exactly throwing them away- it's more like you're buying time with each expandable units you lose. When you are on the offensive, the enemy has no time to attack you. Although it is certain death, the time it takes you to actually kill can be quite long. Hence, the real purpose of 'rushing' is for you to always be on the offensive and control the speed of the game.

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I can agree with that strategy, but in too many games its simply that the person who's computer is faster will win simply because they can chug out the cheapest unit possible the fastest.

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I'm talking less about "swarming" with one massive fleet and more about "rushing" with individual units.

I hate this as well. Especially since it is very easy to prevent it, yet the developers rarely choose to do so. All you need is cheap innitial defences that aren't strong enough to interfere with late game. In usual RTS games that can be a structure, in a game like Sins it can be automated planetary defense that can exist (not even built) at the moment a colony is started.

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