Will the AI eventually be z-axis aware in a meaningful way?

well the z'axis would be useful if we weren't forced to move our ships to just above/below the planet.

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the range is like a sphere Dai (at least its supposed to be)

As it stands, the AI will react to you using the z-axis, but it won't actively use it on it's own. Even just using it a bit makes battles much more interesting, so I'm curious if the current plan is largely sticking to planar movement, or giving the AI some competence when it comes to the Z-axis.

the devs have refused to allow 3-D in anything more advanced than it is now, despite outrage and cries of anger. they're rather stubborn about keeping this one noob friendly.

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?!??!?!??????????

NO 3-d MOVEMENT!?!?!??!?!?!

that is insane!!

almosts makes the game lose its appeal to do that.

that is the hole reason I play HW.

HW has very simple 3-D movement idea, even noobs can do it profenently.

why can't they do it like that?

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cause, many people couldnt do the homworld thing

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I begged them... I didnt even get a coherent answer. the only thing they said that made any sense was that "the ai would have to be reworked to accept 3-D" and I can accept that, but how bad could that be? with the simplicity of a 2-D solar system it cannot be THAT bad.

also I asked structures be placed in 3-D to counter players who would send their units around vertically, again a no-go. so thats the first cheap tactic you can use!

cause, many people couldnt do the homworld thing

is that someone who's name starts with eet? and ends in sqrls?

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

I think the main problem is that it really doesn't add as much tactical depth as some people claim it does (up or down, you still can't get any further away from the planet than you would on a 2d plane since it's a spherical arena), so it really isn't worth the added complexity.

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I can understand what Kyro is saying here. The shortest distance between two points is still a straight line. Since everything comes out of phase space on a 2D plane and all planets/stars are on the same 2D level, 3D really doesn't come much into play.

That said, it would be nice if more 3D content is added. But we will likely see this with the mods that will come out afterwards.

Just be happy Ironclad used a real 3D system and not some lame 2.5 crap system. At least we will be able to mod in 3D.

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is that someone who's name starts with eet? and ends in sqrls?

try lord and kosc

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I think the main problem is that it really doesn't add as much tactical depth as some people claim it does (up or down, you still can't get any further away from the planet than you would on a 2d plane since it's a spherical arena), so it really isn't worth the added complexity.

I think you seriously ahve this reversed here, it would increase tactical depth, but would not seriously increase complexity (which I've been meaning to point out, I adored homeworld's form of movement, espectially the movable circle even if you've already clicked)

tactically you would rarely have a reason to go beyond the plain, so unless you seriously bungle the system it would hardly get in the way, but there are occasions where you would want to place the platforms beyond and away, or maybe you want to pierce defenses from the upper side of the gravity well, not the lower. (int his case you sacrafice time for less resistance, if only temporarily). and the 3-D system is only really annoying if you keep it as unintuitive and clunky and useless as it is now!

not to mention the nightmare that multiplayer games are going to be when bombing is as simple as avoiding all of the gauss cannons and bringing a few flak frigs...

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I think the main problem is that it really doesn't add as much tactical depth as some people claim it does (up or down, you still can't get any further away from the planet than you would on a 2d plane since it's a spherical arena), so it really isn't worth the added complexity.

Fair enough -- know if the modding tools/kits will expose the AI enough to make such changes to the AI feasible (if difficult)?

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(which I've been meaning to point out, I adored homeworld's form of movement, espectially the movable circle even if you've already clicked)

to clarify what I meant by this: I currently despise the game's movement system, it doesnt allow you to remove orders you accidentally made or to know exactly where you're telling ships to go in the first place, there should be a moving indicator when you have your mouse held down (first of all) and second there needs to be a way to remove unwanted orders (such as when you really want them to attack fleeing scout ships, but instead you miss and click behind)

know if the modding tools/kits will expose the AI enough to make such changes to the AI feasible (if difficult)?

other than having the AI build in 3-D (which is impossible anyhow) the AI is for all intents and purposes, already perfectly designed for 3-D.

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The z-axis is not limited, which made me understand why the dev's decided to keep buildings on the x/y plane. I sent a handful of cobalts to (what I thought at the time) was the sky of a system. I just kept going and going and still no end in sight. Imagine putting a phase inhibitor up there. What was worse was that you had to come all the way back down to go to the next system.

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Inert, that should have been fixed when the gravity well was created into a sphere, if the devs didnt do that I dont know what to say, blair posted to my face "gravity wells are spheres, not just cylinders or circles"

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ok, now that we have consent here

we should all chant

"we want HW's 3d movement!!"

okay??

GO!!!

we want HW's 3d movement!!
we want HW's 3d movement!!
we want HW's 3d movement!!

and it DOES add tactical depth, think about it, you can go ABOVE a enemies fleet. you can have more room for structure and stuff, just to space them farther apart.

also, (a little random, but thier is a relation) I also think, that when you jump into a grav well, you can do it just like it is now, or you can zoom in on the target planet, and choose what part of the grav well you can jump into. Only at the edge mind you, it wouldn't make sence to be able to jump in to the middle of a grav well or somthing. Then again, that part would have to be only 2-d, becouse to be able to any point on the grav wells surface (assuming it is a sphere) then that would be too hard to defned. however if you combine my two ideas being abel to jump to any point on the 2-d grav well, and be able to move up and down, you could DRASTICLE increase the tactical depth.

sry bout the length.

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Multianna

Join Date 10/2006

+10

I currently despise the game's movement system, it doesnt allow you to remove orders you accidentally made

use the stop key and they will cancel the order that was given.

there should be a moving indicator when you have your mouse held dow

You can see that by holding down the ALT key

I agree that 3D movement would have been cool. But as the game is now, i dont really see it useful in any way.

What could anyone gain from using 3D movement in sins as it is now?
Whats actualy the point of the 3D movement? you want to fly up or down in a grav well? fine but what would you gain from it?
Ships doesnt have weak points like tanks have in CoH, so i dont really see the tactical value of it

For those who do not know, use the ~ key to move in 3D

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I think the main problem is that it really doesn't add as much tactical depth as some people claim it does (up or down, you still can't get any further away from the planet than you would on a 2d plane since it's a spherical arena), so it really isn't worth the added complexity.

in the last game my fleet chased some flax half way to not the next grav well but the second one. in number of jump lanes to get there.

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use the stop key and they will cancel the order that was given.

Yeah, and all the *other* orders too.

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Multianna

Join Date 10/2006

+10

use the stop key and they will cancel the order that was given.

Yeah, and all the *other* orders too.

What do mean?
Like when queuing orders and you want to cancel one of them?

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What do mean?
Like when queuing orders and you want to cancel one of them?

Well, if you've ever played supreme commander thats the general idea of a good system. You que up orders, and if you want to change one you can use the shift key to drag and drop it, and I think it was shift+right click to remove it entirely. Any waypoint, in any order.

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I have to agree, it does add little tactical depth in a game like Sins. The micro of such a battle would be a waste of time in the first place.

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Multianna

Join Date 10/2006

+10

What do mean?
Like when queuing orders and you want to cancel one of them?

Well, if you've ever played supreme commander thats the general idea of a good system. You que up orders, and if you want to change one you can use the shift key to drag and drop it, and I think it was shift+right click to remove it entirely. Any waypoint, in any order.

yeah i play it from time to time, didnt know about shift+right click to remove a waypoint thanks

oh and yeah it would be nice in sins aswell

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didnt know about shift+right click to remove a waypoint thanks

I think there's an alt in there somewhere, too. I don't remember the exact command, its muscle memory level kinda stuff.

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I think the main problem is that it really doesn't add as much tactical depth as some people claim it does (up or down, you still can't get any further away from the planet than you would on a 2d plane since it's a spherical arena), so it really isn't worth the added complexity.

It would add a HUGE lot to the believability of the game. Sins promised to bring the best space feeling yet than it went for the same limitations others have. I guess it will at least matter in MP.

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I have to agree, it does add little tactical depth in a game like Sins. The micro of such a battle would be a waste of time in the first place.

Wrong. As was said above, you can easily avoid gauss cannons by flying over them or under them, making them useless against a human player.

It would also be nice to be able to place structures in 3d, since a gauss cannon wall is of course much more effective than a gauss cannon line, or for that matter, a disc of ships (standing vertically) would be much more useful for large fleets then the current long line we get, etc.

Also Schem is quite right, that the current movement system is very antic and not really advanced. It could need some serious improvement, à la Total Annihilation/Supreme Commander style.

It really needs the ability to position your fleet in the correct direction, and not just some arbitrary position made by the AI.

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Wrong. As was said above, you can easily avoid gauss cannons by flying over them or under them, making them useless against a human player.

This sounds more like the Gauss turrets should be able to rotate it's turrets, as opposed to being fixed to fire along the X/Y axis only.

As for 3D movement, and wanting fleets to fly over other fleets, I can't see how that accomplishes anything of value. The opposing ships would simply lift their front a little and blast you to pieces as you fly over. And subsequently turn around and blast you as you fly past.

All I'm seeing in "examples" so far from various posters above, is a request for unnecessary amounts of complexity that would serve for nothing else then to bog down the pace of Multiplayer and add nothing of value to Sins, and if anything MP needs an increase in pace to allow for shorter matches.

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