I voted for 4x because as of right now the RTS part is pretty solid in my opinion. I see this as kind of a balancing act where earlier RTS might not have been developed enough, and now the penedulum has swung the other way. My guess is that the stuff currently in the pipeline will help a lot with many of the weaknesses in the current 4x part of the game. In the end, Sins will never be a 100% 4x, but hopefully it will be more than 100% RTS too.   

Finding a minor civ would be kind of cool but also something for an expansion/Sins 2.

ok, so I got you completely wrong. sure, some of those elements would be nice to have, what I would love is that some planets not only have militia but also limited infrastructure you need to bomb first, like 500 hp and then you colonise. also, there are mods that change the altogether static mode of planets a bit while still preserving their distinct uses.

as for pure exploration: I dont see how what you really want can be reconciled with the jump lane system. space is mighty big and there may well be tons of treasures lying around, but in all honesty it would take ages to explore it all. sure, you can add little things, like derelict ships, a map of the surroundings, a low tech if you want or a left over station, but that's not so much the exploration I think.

do you think a "search for jump lanes" function would aid that exploration part? it could be like having your ships sit there a moment and calculate where you can go from the new grav well and only then will you see the jump lanes and be able to use it. it would of course slow down the beginning quite a bit, if your cannot send your scout just along, because it might get destroyed by militia while sitting there and calculing jump lanes, but still.

or you make it a research. like stellar cartagraphy and it gives you the jump lanes to new worlds as you arrive there, but only a limited number of jumps from your hw. so at the beginning you can only explore some 2 - 3 jumps and as you research more (or possibly set up colonies closer to the limit range) it becomes farther.

ps. I think minor races were considered, but scrapped for time issues.

If a turn in galciv were 5 seconds in sins, a huge map would be a medium single star game...

Most of your tech advancement in a 4x is from one weapon type to the next. Most of your advancement in sins is from one ship type to the next. This is the flaw, not how long research takes. They went with a bad research tree for scaling purposes, you need to be able to actually use the stuff. Imagine a frigate game where you maybe got to carriers and possibly the first support cruiser, never saw the late stage techs, maybe couldn't even get to refineries. It would be a really shitty game, it would be what you'd have in a 3 hour game if the research tree were scaled as is to a 100 planet game.

To design it right and have it scale with the game duration you'd do the following. Quick access to all unit types, support cruisers, carriers, heavier combat ships, etcetera etcetera. Special abilities perhaps spaced out through a long tree, some unobtainable in a short game, no core abilities out of reach though. Side defining techs like phase gates would likewise be accessible reasonably soon, but shit in a can compared to their ultimate form after hours and hours of research specifically into that particular technology. Individual abilities would have their own research trees that improved them, hours of research. Different weapons systems, sensor suites, engine modifications, anything and everything to improve the entry level ship designs would be in there and vast in quantity.

You'd then have what we have now for a short game, and in a 100 planet game that lasts a week, the cobalt would out damage the original kol, a carrier would be an army unto itself, perhaps cloaked, with multiple hangar bays and bombers that have been replaced with rapidly manufactured suicide drones that pierce the shields and detonate directly on the hulls, capable of killing those starting cobalts with single impacts, able to kill entire fleets of the original units.

The tech tree doesn't work for a long game because it's just not a real tech tree, it's like getting your armor and damage upgrades in a standard fantasy rts and expanding up through the tree of units. Armor upgrades, melee damage upgrades, range increases and damage upgrades for archers, unit specific damage multipliers, cavalry speed increases, mana capacity increases for the casters. Sins more damage upgrades and in multiple types of course, but damn does it look familiar. It looks like what a lot of rts games would look like if you took their tech tree and put it on a page instead of in buildings you purchase and upgrade through as you get access to bigger stuff.

I think Sins has what it takes to be both a successful RTS and 4x. The most important aspect ofcourse is the 4x element but I think prooven RTS micro elements can work.

I see the "RTS" as the technical aspects of micro and how people use their mouse clicks. What needs to be microed and just as important what doesnt need to be microed. Ive gone of on a a few tangents about raiding , and ways to improve micro and I think it can be achieved in Sins so that it doesnt burden the casual player or those wanting big 4x games but is accessible to those who dwelve into the realms of Expertism.

Infact I believe any player really entering the realms of Expertism will be those that WANT to see the RTS elements of Sins. If Sins ends at the point of just being a 4x then I dont think expertism will exist in the way it exists in many popular RTS games , but I am sure it would be a form of expertism akin to 4x games.

In Civ , if you were building something costing 10 prod and you make 3 prod/turn. On your fourth turn you make sure u reduce your prod to 1 and move 2 prod to 2 gold. Then 5th turn turn it back. Do this for every city you have without fail for whatever you make. This is the sort of Expertism in pure 4x games. Thus I feel Sins advantage as a RTS , is that Expertism can fall within the realms of RTS style microing which can be fun if done right.

that sounds about right. core units should be available even in relatively small games, so this forcefully leaves to everything you experience in very large games as non-core. the main issue is that it is barely possible to use the same tech tree in a fun way for a 2 hour game and for a 20 hour game. you have to tweak some aspect of it. now cost is obviously hardly an option, as it would be more of a waste of money if upgrades were seriously expensive (unless resources are never an issue anyhow, which in itself would be bad too), so you could try time, plus adding some more late game stuff, but then its a difficult choice adding lots of stuff in that possibly won't be used by a large part of the gamers, plus testing it requires long games i.e. lots and lots of time.

there is another tiny aspect which is more rts to me. later upgrades take more time to research I think. in 4x, since your research capacity rises in the course of the game, this need not necessarily be so and as more labs should also give you more scientists, the two effects of more complicated techs and more funding/ personnel should cancel out. my feeling is just that early techs are researched so damn fast, even though I'm used to 10 or 20 turns for starting techs at 4x.

Maybe I'm just over-analyzing, (very possible as I've been playing RTS's since the venerable Dune II) but to me an RTS has always seemed just a smaller version of a 4x played out in real time on a smaller scale. Exploration is there, Exploitation is there (controlling/mining resource nodes), Expansion is there (acquiring more resource nodes), and Extermination is most certainly there. Sins is a certainly welcome addition for pulling back from the tactical clickfest and rewarding more strategic play, but the 4x elements are more interchangeable than people seem to suggest. It's why I think an RTS/4X hybrid is appealing and believable. Moreso than other "Hybrids" (RTS/FPS anyone?)

BUT, in the interest of the poll, A slightly longer, deeper feel to the tech tree would certainly go a long ways towards generating a more "4X" feel (otherwise knows as EPICaliciousness). To that end I support moving the Prototypes down towards the bottom of the tree and increasing overall research time (for individual techs).

We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.
-Kilumanjaro

I really like that. In fact, I did propose something like some weeks ago, but it was for new lanes (additional lanes discovered as the game advances, to make it more strategic)

I really think that could be one of the way to help.

Yes, Sins is unique in that map sizes don't really change overall game times in a very linear fashion. Just adding a second star can add a disproportionate amount of time to complete the game. So if you blanket it by universally greatly increasing research times to benefit the longer games, in short games you'll barely get any research done.

Modifying it so that single/few star follow one time setting, and larger games another could work, but it's unlikely we'll see it.

Micro != fun, ever.

RTS / FPS hybrids are incredibly fun, actually. I've only had the change to play one -- a half life mod -- but it was incredibly fun and rewarding, and worked very well.

Personal opinion. I very much enjoy microing in Sins

And when two fleets of near equal strength meet for battle you're happy for the outcome to be largely determined by the actions of the AI or elements of chance?