True that!

Halcyon before refit would make a little more or less sense when you think about it. If your going to put it in the row with the other frigates it, wouldn't logically fit(Mako, Frigate, Halcyon Cruiser. I agree with that because I realized that if you put a powerful ship like the destroyer as a starter ship, its going to get spammed from the start of the game.

I think I got what ships are what or where or whatever you want to call it

Frigates: Mako corvette, Frigate, Halcyon, Destroyer, Prowler(maybe), colony ship

Cruisers: normal carrier, Re-arming freighter, Prowler(maybe), fan-made heavy cruiser

Capital ships(and their TEC equivilants): Halcyon refit/KOL, SuperCarrier/Sova, Refit colony ship(like SoF)/Akkan, Mobile Repair station(like Cradle)/Dunov, Marathon/Marza

I hope some of this makes sense  

Nice observation! This helps big. Move the Halcyon to the cruiser list, prowler to the frigate list, and add the heavy frigate to the frigate list.

It should look like this:
Frigates: Mako corvette, Frigate, Heavy Frigate, Destroyer, Prowler, colony ship

Cruisers: normal carrier, Re-arming freighter, Halcyon, fan-made heavy cruiser

Capital ships(and their TEC equivilants): Halcyon refit/KOL, SuperCarrier/Sova, Refit colony ship(like SoF)/Akkan, Mobile Repair station(like Cradle)/Dunov, Marathon/Marza

The list follows the 6/4/5 pattern.

For the fan-made heavy cruiser, I think a Heavy Cruiser with the weapons of a covenant ship would be perty sweet. Kinda like an experimental ship, weaker tech than what is being reverse-engineered from.

Hope this helps even more  

Im looking ahead and trying to supply covenant ship ideas for the modders with skill on the thread. Its just a rough draft so . . .

Frigates: Frigate, Heavy Frigate, Destroyer, Stealth Corvette, Fan-made frigate, Colony ship

Crusiers: Carrier, Re-arming freighter, Light cruiser, Cruiser

Capital ships(using TEC as a bad equivilant: CCS-class Batle Cruiser(Kol), Assault Carrier(Marza), Supercarrier(Sova), Supercruiser(Dunov), Armored Agricultural Supportship[Like Infinite Succor](Akkan)

I know the uses for the capital ships are . . . bad, but I didn't have a wide variety of ships:WWW Link. So if you think you can come up with a better list, please do.

Yes that is one of the reasons I'm making Shiva Nukes reliant on Anti-matter and also on a timer. The won't have a huge blast radius but somethign like 3000 meters or whatever the in-game mesurement units are. And for a good Microing player, a lone destroyer can defeat a Covenant Destroyer and 2 Frigates. Look up the "Keyes Loop."

Your plan above though is assuming that covenant dont fight back really. A few pulse laser bursts or Plasma Torpedos can uttlerly destroy a UNSC Frigate.

A good analysis, but with holes.
First off you talk ONLY about the SMAC weaponry, which travels at 119,916,983 meters per second or 119,917 km per second, or 9.4 earth distances per second. Yes thats fast but once you start talking distance in space its another story. For instance, that shell would take approx 3.2 seconds to reach the moon from earth. While its still difficult to dodge at that speed we need to move to normal MAC weaponry which is around 30,000-100,000 meters per second (30k is the norm circa 2525, 100k is estimation for advancements over 27 years). (30-100 km per second)which would take nearly 6 minutes and 30 seconds to reach the moon from earth, and in my opinion thats more then enough time to dodge even if that distance was cut into a forth which gives well over a minute to move the ship away from the trajectory.

Also i suggest you look up information on blast radii of weaponry and how they function in space. They have their core detonation as well as a slightly smaller but still evident fireball. While these are considered to nearly dissipate compared to an in atmosphere explosion they still propel more then enough of an electromagnetic pulse to knock out ships and shields as well as far higher amounts of thermo-nuclear radiation then even evident in ground explosions.

Also it takes more then one, sometimes up to FOUR MAC rounds to damage a covenant ship if we take this to the extream. Meanwhile two nukes in quick succession will destroy most if not all covenant ships within a couple miles of the blast. In addition we can almost fairly assume that shiva and havok warheads have been adapted for effective use in space so that their damage radii would be larger then weapons we currently deploy for simulated ground engagements.

Also as you said, the more tactically useful weapon gets the ammo, that sir is the nuke. If you dont believe me find me at least two passages in the halo books that prove their tactical use over that of the use of nukes because i know i can find two in FoR alone that gave humans a decisive edge over covenant forces using nukes in space.

EDIT as to a reply stating the EMP is from the earths atmosphere this is true but it relates to the magnetization of ion partials given off by the explosion. Should any strong magnetic forces be present the EMP effect is still valid. Considering BOTH human and covenant ships use magnetic coils to power their weapons i believe this effect would still occur to some level. In addition, there is extra magnetic forces in space all the time traveling with solar wind and in spacial anomalies, far too much to rule it out completely.

Double EDIT
Again, they do fight back, this is considering both ships enter the well at the same time and begin to close ranks. The missiles can out run the ship. Pulse lasers dont have the range of a MAC, the torpedoes do but in the encounter around chi ceti 4 a covenant frigate didnt even surmise the idea until it realised it was really under threat.
So my assumption is that the covenant ships would move in close knowing they could take a few MAC rounds or missile hits and not anticipating the nukes. Before they know it they where hit far harder then they expected. While the humans might lose their ships the covenant would lose more or at least be damaged far more then they ever expected.
Also the problem with the Key's loop is that it relies on enemy fire power to hit its own ship. Without that id say if it was a destroyer THEN two frigates it could still be done, but a destroyer + two frigates might be a bit much.

Maico, your arguement is full of assumptions and guesses. First of all, that quote I gave was talking about MAC's, NOT SMAC's. If it was talking about a SMAC, it would have said SMAC. So a MAC round fired by a frigate, could reach the moon in 3.2 seconds? And how long would it take for a nuke to reach the moon?

As for your nuke thing, the blast radius is excedingly small in space when compared to an in-atmosphere detonation. Furthermore, you assume the shields wouldn't block out the radiation, and that the hull wouldn't block it. And you fruther assume the shields aren't resistant to an EMP affect. Last time I checked, covenant shields were plasma, and I'm not very good at science, but EMP's affect electronics, NOT plasma. So I see no reason why an EMP would knock out a covenant ships shields.

Also, it depends on the MAC, and the covenant ship. A SMAC can destroy an entire battlecruiser in one hit. I think a Marathons MAC can one-hit kill a covenant frigate. So it all depends on the size of the MAC, and strength of the enemy ship. Furthermore, a nuke does NOT have a multi-mile blast radius in space. That blast radius comes from the shockwave the nuke produces, NOT the explosion itself.

Half of the reasons you give for the nuke being superior, are assumptions. You ASSUME the nuke has such a large blast radius, you ASSUME the EMP would damage the covenant ships. While my arguements for the MAC are based on canon information. Also, I believe an EMP simply shuts down electronic devices. All that would mean is a covenant couldn't guide it's plasma torpedos, it could still fight just fine.

So really, a nuke's strength comes from it's blast radius and as I stated, that's not that large in space. Furthermore, I'm looking it up right now and it says a covenant frigate's shields can withstand a nuke, a frigate, the loweliest ship the covenant have, can withstand a single nuke. Consequently, it can only withstand a single MAC aswell. So I don't see how a Nuke is any more powerfull then a MAC if both of them can't one-hit kill a single ship.

Perhaps covenant weaponry but UNSC weaponry has no shielding which is why the pillar of autumns least defended vector is along the MAC rails line.

Also you must realize the magnetic forces in space are only like that here given what we can see. Spacial anomalies and even nearby asteroids with iron centers could add to a possible EMP. In addition other areas of our galaxy there maybe more or even less magnetic forces in space then we know about from earth, in fact there have been these occurances from some stars or even star "hatcheries". Some of these so large they could end life as we know it because the magnetic force would disrupt even the electrical pulses in our bodies if they had happened close enough to earth.
In addition there is always the possibility that UNSC weapons have been conditioned for this specific use in space as it would not only destroy a large portion of a rebel base but also cause extreme damage to their communication systems in the outlying areas.

I assume this based off of evidence however. You assume based off of misguided facts.

In addition your making your own assumptions, have you noted ANY references for your information? Because i know i have and could if you have any questions.
Where does it say covenant shields are plasma?
Also if a covenant ship can guide its plasma torpedoes then an EMP can hit its shields because they work both ways. They keep damage out AND in, again i can reference a page number and book if you wish.

If your talking about normal MAC's then you have your numbers wrong, a frigate MAC round DOES NOT move at .4 the speed of light only SMAC rounds do.





Another thing you seem to have completely forgotten is that a nuke is a MISSILE. Sure it may only move at 1/10th the speed of a ship based MAC round but it can be guided and have its trajectory CHANGED. It can be laid in wait as a trap or used via a longsword fighter.

Also the NOVA bomb (aka planet cracker) employed by the UNSC used 9 warheads and had a detonation strong enough to whipe out a fleet of nearly 300 covenant ships, fragment a moon and scorch half a planet from an orbital position. While its set up did extend its yeild i don think we are to take these nukes so lightly.

We dont know what kind of power systems the covenant employ either, while an EMP shuts down all currently known human systems it may simply disable them for a short time on covenant based ships. THAT i will admit is an assumption.

Only a few metals can slow radioactive particals. Your assuming yourself that covenant ships can in fact repel these particals.

So lets see here,
Im 100% certain the EMP WOULD travel through covenant shields
Im about 80% certain the nukes would have enough blast radii to damage a large area.

And in relation to your argument about cov frigates, it also is evident via the books that almost all covenant ships can survive a nuke and just lose their shields unless they are outside the blast range in which case it can shrug it off with little if any damage.
How can i put this... In a fight between a Frigate and say, CCS class battle cruiser
A MAC round is like a shot from the BR, it takes 3 hits to take shields down and then damage can be done with anywhere from 1-4 killing the ship or in my metaphor another player.
A Shiva warhead is more like say a plasma pistol at full charge, removes the shields completely. Then another would be like the resulting melee at close range which would kill the opponent.

Finally, your currently just trying to discredit the nuke while adding no strength to your own argument.
Im saying from what ive read in the books which are cannon the nuke has appeared multiple times as the more tactical option which again, you said yourself is the one that should rely on anti-matter.

EDIT


Nuke slower then MAC - TRUE

MAC takes seconds to travel - ALL weaponry does, its the type of MAC that determines how many seconds, and sometimes when using ship based MAC systems those seconds add up to minutes

Nukes can be shot down - TRUE however in all engagements they went unnoticed by the covenant

Nukes cant do hull damage - FALSE there are examples in book about vaporization of ships within blast radii of nuclear weaponry

MAC's cant be shot down - FALSE a MAC round is made of metal which covenant plasma weaponry has constantly proven can be quickly and easily melted through.

As for all spacial anomalies heres a little news, we live in a VERY selective and unique environment here in the Sol system. MOST other areas are filled with anomalies and have nearby systems that would wreak havok on earth be it placed in that area. We are in one of say approx 500,000 habitable planets, most others have far different surrounding anomalies then our own including binary star systems, different types of stars, other sets of asteroids or comets, different surrounding planetary bodies including but not limited to large iron core bodies like earth and mars to the extreme hot gas planets which are hotter then even some of the cooler stars.

With the odds of one or more of these anomalies appearing its illogical to rule them all out completely based on the immensely tiny section of the galaxy let alone universe in which we humans reside. So yes i make some assumptions, but thats because they're there in far greater numbers then even a 50 50 possibility, probably closer to a 90/10 or 95/5 possibility.

Please don't.

Ok lets see here.
Covenant shields as plasma is an assumption since you seem so keen on pointing out all my assumptions.
Also yes they open to release the plasma because if they didnt then the plasma would burst on the inside damaging the ship and lowering shields, it still guides the projectile itself long after closing the shield back up. This is fact based off of the books because the spartans use this small window of time to enter the ship, while on the other hand durring battles these torpedoes have tracked their targets far after that window of time would have closed thus completing a full shield circuit meaning that the EMP could get through the shields of the ship.

If you goto halo wikia and search MAC, it will come up with this artical:
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/MAC
Look it up then get back to me.

If the missiles move at the speed they should to be effective which we will have to assume that they do or else even archer missiles would be useless on ships because the ship would be traveling faster then the missile then we know that it moves at a slower but still effective speed to be a viable weapon.

Also Durring the battle at reach there is no specification of using nukes as mines and it would be very unlikely that good mine laying would have been easy to do accuractly beforehand leading me to guess that they were placed after the covenant attack started.

Also you contradict yourself.

Let me lay out two scenarios for ya one with nukes MAC's and Missiles, then one with no nukes and a few more MAC's.

1. 20 cov destroyers vs 20 UNSC destroyers
As they approach the UNSC destroyers fire all 40 of their MAC guns (we'll assume they ALL hit) Covenant shields drop, maybe minor damage.
At the same time the destroyers fire hitting them with 40 pulse lasers and 40 plasma torpedoes.
Lets assume the destroyers get lucky and fire off their full salvos of archer missile pods.
The battle is over now as all UNSC destroyers are enevitably either dead in space or just vaporized. Meanwhile maybe a few of the covenant destroyers are dead in space or destroyed, but for the most part at least 7-10 would be left with enough structural integrity to pilot themselves. And thats if the UNSC forces got lucky.

2. 20 cov destroyers vs 20 UNSC heavy frigates
Longsword fighters are send out to engage enemy ships, meanwhile 5 nukes (more then enough to effect these 20 ships as only 4 are used on the fleet that attacked reach) are launched into the cov ships path (using your trap scenario)
The nukes go off lowering all their shields and leaving them temporaraly dazed from the blast, the frigates fire their MACs and full salvo of missiles to hit right afterward.
The covenant get lucky and fire off 40 plasma torpedoes before getting hit.
Around 5 covenant ships (small estimate) get disabled or destroyed in the first attack.
Five frigates survive to charge and fire their MACs again finishing off 5 more destroyers which are already heavily wounded. Durring the charge they also fire off the last of their warheads, assuming that at least 1 wasnt one that fired a nuke initially.
The battle ends and the space is left with debris floating everywhere. While no ships survived the tonnage gets calculated out to a UNSC victory by damage done.

These assumed space battles put the nukes at their weakest and MACs at their strongest based on the arguements you try to make. More MAC's prove less tactical then less MACs + nukes.

EDIT
After seeing that the covenant carrier which is the same approx size as the covenant destroyer having hull resistance of up to 100 archer missiles, AND considering that a frigate has 780 archer missiles (26 pods of 30 missiles each) there is no doubt that the UNSC forces here would fly away unscathed. Completely out of missiles but unscathed none the less.

Also they are singularly referred to as energy shields who said plasma plasma would be a bit of a burner self harm shield

Indeed the shields are an assumption, I never said they weren't. Infact the very evidence I gave stated as such. But since no specification has ever been given, and plasma is the only source of energy the covenant use, it stands to reason their shields would be plasma.

Also, tell me where it says the shield goes back up. I don't remember that part of the book, and since you seem to like seeing sources, you should be able to give me it aswell. And "In the book" doesn't count.

As for the MAC, that page is where I pulled my quote from. Go read it for yourself, it doesn't specify one way or the other Until later, so it contradicts itself and is thus at the discretion of the reader. I chose to believe ALL MACs fire at that speed since if they fired slower, not only wouldn't they do enough damage, they'd also be a pointless weapon.

The missile can still move faster then a ship, and take several minutes to reach the enemy. Ships don't travel across the solar system in five minutes you know. A missile for them would probably go from one side of the earth to the other in a minute (Last I checked modern ICBM's take 6 minutes to accomplish that, so that's a pretty nice advancement for 500 years, considering I doubt rocketry was their main prioity once they achieved space flight.)

And just cuz they're used as mines, doesn't mean they need to be placed there before the battle. Once the covenant were detected, the ships can just drop shiva warheads as they fly, so during the skirmish they drop the nuclear warheads and later on in the battle they detonated. Still mines though.

And I didn't contradict myself. The blast radius in atmosphere is much larger because it extends far beyond the initial blast. I suppose I coulda chosen my words better, but the shockwave can still be classified as a blast. However in space that shockwave isn't present, so the only stopping power comes from the explosion itself, which is drasticly smaller to the overall radius when you include the shockwave.

Your battles weren't accurate, I'll re-do them for you.
1: 20 cov destroyers vs 20 UNSC destroyers.
Each destroyer fires their MAC's at each destroyer, the two MAC's bring all of the Destroyers shields down. The UNSC ships immediately launched a barrage of missiles. All of the missiles impact the Destroyers and the mass ammoutns of archer missiles destroy the ships. However before being destroyer, the 20 covenant ships fired off a salvo of plasma torpedos. In the end all 40 ships are destroyed.

2: 20 cov destroyers vs 20 UNSC heavy frigates
The heavy frigates launch a salvo of nukes at the enemy ships, the covenant destroyers shoot them all down before they get within range to detonate. The UNSC ships fire all 20 of their macs, focusing two frigates per destroyer so they can bring down the shields on 10 of the destroyers. By this time all 20 destroyers fired their plasma torpedos so 40 torpedos descend on the frigates. The frigates in return launch another salvo of nukes with dozens of archer missiles before being destroyed by the plasma torpedos. The archer missiles help hide the nukes and so the nukes manage to break through, destroying the 10 un-shielded destroyers and damaging the 10 shielded ones.

The reason the frigates won in your scenerio is because you didn't take into account that the covenant would shoot them down. If the frigates had not launched the nukes, and instead layed them, that'd be differant. But since the nukes were fired they were detected by the covenant and shot down, giving the covenant enough time to fire off their plasma torpedos and kill the frigates. Only possible way a nuke could reach the enemy, is if protected by a horde of archer missiles, like I showed.

In both cases, the UNSC lose terribly, however since the destroyers had 40 MAC's, they were able to take out the covie forces. If the frigates had launched a barrage of archers and nukes in the begining, they might have won. Depends on whether or not the covie ships were near eachother, or if they scattered. Either way, having MAC is more helpfull then having a nuke.


Edit: I read up on the shields, and allthough they are called energy shields, it doesn't specify what KIND of energy. And since shield tech isn't specified, and the covenant use so many plasma devices, it's reasonably safe to assume that their shields would be plasma aswell. And if humans in our day and age can have plasma around an object without doing it harm, I'm sure the covenant could aswell lol

There is hot plasma and cold plasma, currently there is technology for a plasma window which uses cold plasma, if you want to see hot plasma put a grape under a cup in the microwave... on second thought you might kill yourself doing that so dont



The shields on their ships work exactly as S117 and elite shields do. In the case of the battle at Chi Ceti 4 starting on page 102 of The Fall of Reach the Commonwelth attacks the covenant frigate with a barrage of 180 archer missiles, 90 are shot down or miss entirely. Shields remain up. After a couple seconds of astonishment they fire a MAC round. This in lue with missiles punctures the shield slightly damaging the ship slightly. Then after waiting for the MAC to recharge they fire again (page 109)keep in mind that the shields have already fallen once "The MAC round struck the covenant vessel amidships. Its shield simmered and bubbled... then dissapeared."

As for that site i gave you to look at try looking under types instead of just ammunition.

Also in your simulation using nukes you left out entirely the long sword fighters which frigates carry and were used to hide the first nukes. Unlike destroyers who give up their fighters for the extra armor and MAC gun frigates still hold at least 3 each.
Another thing you forget is that the tonnage of frigates and destroyers mean that the greatest loss ratio was STILL with the destroyers and not the frigates despite your simulations.

Also as a reference Fall of Reach page 111-112 the frigate commonwelth uses its longsword interceptors to distract a covenant frigate while it fired a nuke. Sacrificed the interceptors but it took out the shields of the covenant ship. If they had armed a MAC round to fire at that moment they could have killed it.