I for one do not side with anyone on this matter of artist and what so and so has done. But that if we are to discuss this resposibly so ... we need to see the product and how it is made to work. If it is a windows hack. Then that is all it is... hope MS will allow or give consent for it.
Myself I'm very happy with Stardock programs and the artist who are here and/or work here too. My point is "I'm not too concerned with this! Being the program has yet to be released!" But I do not care for bashing the artist who in my eye have little to do with what a program does or does not do.

I seriously doubt I'll be trying or buying it for many reasons. For one this thread and what I've read here so far. Plus I just do not need anything else at this point. And bashing is not a good idea for any release as I see it.

Lets see the product ...

SGT  

I for one think that people like William Bart and Kol are the best of the best.

I have no doubt that the art work for "Hyper Suites" is as good as XP uxtheme.dll can possibly deliver.  But uxtheme.dll was made 8 years ago.

A lot of people here love SkinPlant and Pixtudio. But if they were to release one of their 8-year old suites today, unchanged, how well do you think it would do in an age of alpha blended skins, hardware accelerated tech, animation, gadgets, etc.?

Like Angie (Karmagirl) said, the artists at TSF are great. But what does that have to do with the fact that they have stated that their skinning is uxtheme patching in memory (i.e. Style XP like tech).  That was all very interesting 7+ years ago.  But today? Jesh is hyping that? In 2008?

And like others have said, insulting people like Treetog, Alexandrie, Mormegil, etc. (as Jesh has done over on WinMatrix) is really tacky. Who is he trying to convince? People already know they're great skinners. Insulting them just looks petty.

I would just like to say William Bart is Incredible!

elvee goes back to eating his Popcorn

Thanks for the complements Brad Much appreciated.

However, I stand by my original assertion that our talent pool remains wholly intact. I am stunned by your assertion that the individuals you mention are responsible for 'most' of the skins and themes The Skins Factory has produced over the years.

In summary:

Treetog did the Darkstar icon set, to spec with colors/surfaces derived from/inspired by the existing look & feel of our WMP skin and secondary windows. Voo and Mike B have done some themes for us, but again they were working to spec with a pre-existing look & feel in each case, supplied with source PSDs from which to flesh out the themes. Voo has also done some excellent (yet to be released) icon work, again to spec with a style driven by a pre-existing look & feel. Alexandrie did work on a project but the work was never released. Mormegil has never worked with The Skins Factory.

I may have missed the odd individual project here or there, but I would argue that this is a fair and accurate summary of their overall involvement.

So as anyone can plainly see (especially in light of given the sheer volume of quality work in our portfolio) this hardly amounts to most of the themes or icons we've done over the years (I couldn't actually find a media skin in the bunch). And, in each case (as I stated in my original post), these artists were playing supporting, not leading roles - working to spec from existing assets under the direction of others. I'm certainly not alluding to a diminished skill level or inferior talent in these artists, but merely placing a proper and factual perspective upon their involvement in each case. At no point have I insulted any of these artists (anyone who knows me or has worked with me knows this would be entirely out of character - how could I help but respect those who share my passion?) - I am merely correcting factual errors.

I felt this was necessary given the implications that the majority of TSF's past talent is now working for Stardock - this would of course be a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Some talented artists who work for Stardock have also indeed worked with us in the past, but there has been no mass exodus of talent by any stretch of the imagination. To state as much would be dishonest.

With regards to the quality of the work, we're well aware exactly what materials have been leaked and I can state with certainty that what you may have seen would have consisted of cropped teasers and greatly reduced screenshots - these images also would have been largely assembled from bits and pieces of works in progress and placeholders - hardly representative of the finished product and long-outdated in any case. I can assure you that the quality of the work in Hyperdesk is on par with and in many cases surpasses anything we've ever done. Yes, the WMP skins are indeed incredible, but so are their bundled counterparts. There is simply no way one could glean much from the screenshots in these leaked materials given the massive reduction/resampling ratios and other factors I've mentioned.

Personally, I find the leaking of what you must realize are highly sensitive and proprietary (although highly inaccurate) details highly unprofessional and more than a little unnecessary. I was sincerely disappointed by this approach. I myself have invested thousands of hours in this endeavor and would like to think that my young family has not had to endure endless nights and weekends without me for no reason. There are a lot of good people counting on the success of Hyperdesk.

And as for the continuous allusions to ancient technology, I have seen masterpieces produced in 10 year old versions of Photoshop that rival or surpass anything being done today. If the desktop is a canvas, then the skill of the artist and the quality of the art will determine just how beautiful it can become, not the age of the brush. Having said that, what is actually known about the technology is not wholly accurate and is based largely on assumption. I think what it does and how well it does so may surprise many. These are not 8 year old themes - they are wholly new imaginings by some of the best artists in the world rivaling anything else being produced today.

Again, Hyperdesk is not a WB or MyColors competitor - it is an end-to-end solution for delivering the fruits of our labor to the desktop. Why this invites such ridicule, FUD and vitriolic comment is beyond the capability of my understanding.

Many thanks for the kudos in this thread - I appreciate each and every positive comment

Hi Bill,

The ridicule that Hyperdesk is getting has nothing to do with the art.  It has to do with the tech underneath it.

Let me use an analogy that I suspect is close to your heart: If someone today were to release on the Mac a solution that used Kaleidoscope 1.0 as its backend, I think there would be a lot of ridicule involved no matter how talented the art team was.

To many of us, uxtheme.dll patching in 2008 is like someone trying to release a DOS game.

Look at it from the perspective of people who are into this stuff - Jesh is running around hyping up what amounts to some themes that are tied to a system that was considered primitive 8 years ago when it was new.

It's like Jeff has been living in a cave for the last 8 years. 

No one doubts your talent. I would kill to have people like you and Kol working on cool stuff with us.  I know you're more of a Mac user than a Windows user but in the skinning world, the stuff Jesh is trying to do is the kind of stuff some guy who's just out of touch with skinning would try to do.

For instance, Windows Media Player skinning. What on earth is Jeff thinking? He's still making the exact same stuff as he was way back then.  Seriously Bill, do you use Windows Media Player to play music? They have a Mac version. Do you use it?  Nobody does. And WMP is downright state of the art compared to XP uxtheme. 

The issue isn't tech for tech's sake. It's what the tech allows artists to do that is what matters.  WindowBlinds vs. uxtheme patching was interesting - 7 years ago.  But people aren't going to buy themes tied to it any more than someone would buy Mac themes that were tied to Kaleidoscope or MacOS 9.

Reply #21:

 

possibly taken out of context...no names were specifically tied to that statement  

'little tolerance for mediocrity, which is why some lesser artists have moved on'

Yep, I think someone is reading too much into that comment and looking for ammunition to bring some of the the artists into the politics.

Interesting debate   

Skinning's 'engine' has moved on over the years.  Anyone who skinned for pre '1' Windowblinds has seen the development/improvement/s that people now enjuy with the skinning of WB '6'.

The same applies for/with Winamp...from the days when Fli7e found it could be skinned [last millenium - always sounds good like that] to the current vers...enhanced by the kJofol coder [name escapes me] back around WA3 there's a very real difference in "what can be done".

The same applies with WB vs a uxtheme.dll patch.

Sure it takes [maybe more] skill to create a 'wow-factor' skin within old tech, but the reality is going to be that more success will be had wow-ing the public with new tech's capabilities.

TSF's team managed to successfully push WMP skinning to its artistic boundaries, and likely may just do similarly with theme patching the MS GUI, but it's not so much a case of gilding the lilly as gilding the dinosaur.

I find it hard to see how a tech that can and is frequently broken by updates to the OS it's intended to skin can be seen as 'stable'.  Someone has a whole new definition of 'stable' previously unimagined...

XPSP3 is coming right around the corner, how well do you think the reception will be when everyone's themes that they paid $12 for will stop working?

We could bounce back and forth with countless analogies to illustrate our respective opinions with regards to art vs. tech, but this would be pointless. The vast majority of potential end-users have never skinned their OS - they're running the stock OS interface. To this demographic customization is pure geek esoterica or something they never even considered beyond switching wallpapers - not a single one cares how it all works. But again, we're running circles based on inaccurate assumptions here. We're confident that we've got the proper partners, distribution channels and gameplan in place... guess we'll all find out soon enough. I just hope the FUD cools down to a civilized level in the meantime.

It will not matter what technology - patching or otherwise - is involved. The success or failure of a venture like this will be down to two things.

Will it provide the end user with the experience they desire - both in terms of stability, ease of use and artistic content - and will they be willing to pay the price being asked?

Can you encrypt your offering? If you cannot protect it then for every suite you sell there will be a thousand plus freeloaders picking it up from the numerous pirate sites around net for free. Anticipated income will fold and the rest will fall like a pack of cards. MyColors themes are appearing all over the place so this is something you have to consider seriously.

Good luck on the venture, Bill and I look forward to seeing what you have to offer   

 

Maybe he's hired aafus?