You're pitting two low level support capital ships against one high level support cap ship that happens to have a heal. If you cant outdamage a 375 heal every 20 seconds and two carriers are your only method of damage, you have already lost. I bet if you take a single level 3 kol and pit it up against that progenitor it tears the progenitor to peices.

You need to use caps in their forte. If you want to be a cap buster, I suggest Kol battleships.

Evidently, you are incorrect, as people using Marzas and Kols don't have such problems. You can go on losing if you like jsut to disagree though

Given that the game is balanced as fleets and not individuals, unbalanced 1v2's aren't out of the question or even illogical. Balance for balance, how would the progenitor have done against a couple of support cruisers that drain anti-matter or take out specials? Would you consider it fair that a cap ship can be taken out by an equivalent( or less depending on the player) value of support ships and DPS? In your own scenario, drop the second cap and add just two Hoshiko's with demo bots; replace a Sova with a Dunov;both caps with an equal level Kol; or a Sova with an Ion bolt Akkan. There are so many different scenario's where this becomes a sure kill on the Progenitor that it's hard to say it's imbalanced.

As a rule for survival, Cap ships are not combat vessels but incredibly valuable support ships. If you treat them as actual combat vessels you'll find they tend to get eaten alive. While the combat value is not negligible, the full power of cap ships comes from how their abilities help the fleet/mission as a whole.

In short, yes and I just explained and gave examples why. Talking about the potentially overpowered malice- brilliance combo, guardians and illums are one thing, in this case you are talking about a bad match-up in a game that is balanced on a macro, not micro level. Because of the myriad ways this could have gone against the Progenitor with some relatively minor(and cheaper) differences, it's hard to argue it's imbalanced at all.

Edit: I'm not saying it's not imbalanced,I'm saying it's a tough argument to make.

Something you don't mention as well is that the Progenitor would have 2 strikecraft points at level 5. If your opponent had fighters (and unless he was really bad he would), the bombers effectiveness would be really reduced. And i've found that of the 3 colony ships, the Progenitor is the most effective and damaging in fleet combat damage wise out of all 3, but the carrier's generally are not as effective themselves as other combat cap ships. Plus, the way the Progenitor's weapons are arrayed can allow for good positioning to let all the weapon banks fire at the same time, but the Sova's will usually go into a broadside firing arc, limiting them to a single side bank of fire vs the Progenitor's 5.

Why would anybody want to go for two early cap ships and lack frigates? Doesnt make any sense at all ...

I take it you're assuming there were no upgrades based on the stats you could see. Allowing that, when you jumped in he was already in battle so his shield mit was already high. Since he was fighting pirates,I assume it was his world under his culture and Advent have a mit bonus in culture. Advent,the Progenitor especially, can be darn near invincible without proper support. At level 5, the bonuses to armor/shield power and presumably a level 3 shield restore pretty much make a Progenitor a defensive juggernaut capable of whittling significantly larger fleets down, stalling a superior force until back-up arrives or slow walking a foe to death in any scenario where it's not grossly out-gunned (fleet vs 1) or where the opponent doesn't have support/disabling abilities(or phase missiles). You had no support abilities and tried to use an admittedly potent offense vs. a near perfect defense. You lost because you had no fleet variation and no support.

As for the Kol, maybe you would have gotten past the shields but a level 6 Kol does far more damage, has flak burst, a potent shield and finest hour is just beastly. Even at level 5, the shield and flak alone would have given you headaches with your fleet makeup.

Ah, options! Something told me opinions was wrong; I apologize for my response to opinions as it isn't what you meant. I agree, options and variety are good but in this case you didn't really exercise them. I listed off plenty of valid options that would have made the scenario wildly different, you just had one that didn't work. Your two caps didn't lose to a cap with no support, your two caps lost to a ship that is support, heavy defense at that. Had you exercised the option to bring a support cap instead of another carrier or even some frigates, you likely would have won. LRM/HC spam exist because nothing else is cost effective or viable and thus is a genuine balance issue. In this scenario there were plenty of other valid options that would have worked but that weren't exercised. Not only are cap ships not "super units" in this game, they all have different combat aspects that can make one cap as good as 2-3 when the situation allows-- you ran into one.

Right..

I suggest everyone goes and times how long it takes a levle 1 khol to kill every type of pirate foundin a starsystem.

Then go time how long it takes a level 1 Progeniator to do the same.


Then tell me WHICH is spose to be the warship and WHICH is spose to be the colonly ship.

Ke5trel

I would point OUT that a khol loses to 2 carriers with bombers.
I would also point OUT that BOMBERS are an anti heavy ship weapon and they work best agasint surprise surprise CAPSHIPS.
SO tell me then why they were sticks instead of a sharp razorblade.

So the question then is
Why is a colonly ship capable of outdamging a bloody battleship
You say because the battleship is ACTUALLY a tank
Why is it that the TANK would have lost to the same set up instead of winning the fight with no hulldamage....

WEll apparently the Progenitor is a dfensive ship. apparently defensive means unkillable by ANTI capship weaponry(bombers)?

well great
its a defensive ship witch can kill pirates quicker then a khol and then can also colonise worlds its just freed while regenerating its shields as it jumps to the next system to rise and repeat.

Meanwhile the TEC oppoent USING ANY CAPSHIP has to pullhis ship back and research repair yards to regenerate it and if its not the Akkan they also need a colonly ship.

So lets look at steps
Advent
Build capyard
Build Progenitor
build a few frigates to help.
Jump to Terran System.
Fight mass pritate fleet
Shield restore constantly ensureing you lose few or none of your frigates
Colonise planet
Move to next system
regenerate shields along the way

Tec
Build capyard
Build Akkan
build a few frigates to help.
Jump to terran system.
Fight Mass pirate fleet.
Fight till ships are damaged and pull each frigate back out of combat
Colonise planet.
Build Military Station
Research Hullrepair
Build repairyard
wait for repairs
Jump to next system.

SO it costs Tec for the SAME effectiveness 2000 more income.. early game....
well bugger me.....
Its either
a.Its overpowered
b.Other advent capships are underpowered
c.Other race capitals are underpowered

A seems the most logical choice.

@ DrathKar,

Hmm, you edited before I could reply, but most of my points stand, so:

Let's put this into a different framework and see if it makes more sense. Have you ever played World of Warcraft or an equivalent rogue-like? We are looking at class issues you would find familiar if you had. The Kol is a defense-oriented warrior (good at absorbing punishment and dealing just enough damage to hold aggro). The Sovas are offense-oriented hunters (good at sniping from a distance and laying traps). The Progenitor is a paladin (heals, buffs, and debuffs) and Marzas would be rogues (strong direct damage and DoT).

Your paladin is going to outlast any number of casting DPS classes in close-combat because his skills are aimed at healing, mitigating direct damage from enemies, and buffing direct damage from his allies. That's what he does, it's how his skillset is designed. He doesn't deal alot of damage himself, but he doesn't need to, because he can keep healing himself.

So if you send two hunters into melee with a paladin you are going to get beaten, regardless of how much damage they are dealing. The paladin is healing himself and the hunters are not. If your hunters kited the pally like they were designed to, keeping out of close-comabt range, then eventually they would win because the pally has neglible long-distance attacks. If you don't like sniping then you could replace one of your hunters with any of the alternatives suggested above, who would either be able to debuff the paladin (Dunov EMP), stun him (Akkan Ion Bolt), or deliver more damage than he can mitigate (Marza DoT).

It's entirely possible the warrior (Kol) would lose to the hunters if they kited properly, because again the warrior can absorb alot of damage but it can't heal itself and it also has negligible long-range attacks.

And yes the Progenitor is a great support cap, with three useful abilities. That's why you see it so often with Advent play. As emphasized above though, its function is support. Against *effective* attacks it's pretty helpless solo, no matter the level. I'd 1 v 1 a Progenitor with an equivalent-level Marza any time. It isn't overpowered and other caps, with a few exceptions, aren't underpowered. They are all *differently* powered, because they all belong in different classes. If your two Akkans lost to one Progenitor, or your two Sovas lost to one Halcyon, then maybe you would have a point.

I'm not really sure what your build orders prove, weren't we looking at capship vs. capships in isolation?

I'm not trying to get you riled up by debating, it's just that you have to consider every aspect of play before you claim something is unbalanced. You have some really good pointers in this thread for countering lone Progenitors Shield Restoration in future matchups, I suggest you try some of them.

You had me at "IM sick of arguing with people who dont know what they are talking about."

But seriously-

Why don't we agree to disagree on this one. Meantime if you ever happen to see me online we can play a friendly game where I promise to use no shield restoration whatsoever, against however many Progenitors or Dunovs you make.

By the way, I'd be interested in seeing that replay with the 4 Dunovs.

Peace

This thread is hilarious, you must ba a total noob or you missed a huge clue like his ship being 5 levels higher than yours. You probably parked your ships so that his batteries hit both of them, using 100% of his firepower, in which case once again it's your fault. If both your ships were on one side of his, he can only use half his firepower, just like a Sova.