Guson

Join Date 11/2007

TA 1.96.027 Weapon and Defense Tech Tree Analysis

TA 1.96.027 Weapon and Defense Tech Tree Analysis

This is purely an analysis of the weapons and defense portion of the tech tree. Clearly other factors (Super ability, racial abilities) and other parts of the tech tree (economic, production, research, to name a few) are important for actual play.

Tech trees are arranged by degree of similarity. (Iconian and Yor tend to go together at the end, Altarian and Drath together, Drengin and Korath together)

Weapons

Iconian gimp: Iconians have Advanced Beam Weapon, Advanced Mass Drivers, and Advanced Missile Weapons that don't do anything but gimp their tree. I list them as ABW AMD and AMW.

Thalan don't have Beam Weapon Theory, Mass Driver Theory, and Missle Weapon Theory (directly from Space Weapon to the techs)

Beam Weapons
Kinetic Stream cost more research than Lasers, BUT Iconian and Yor have cheaper Beam Weapon Theory so actually Kinetic Stream tree is slightly faster.
Ion more damage than Plasma, larger (but scales slightly better), more cost. Cheaper to research.
Disruptors better than Phasors, more cost. More research than Phasors.
Yor Phasors are just as good as other Phasors, but shorter (hence cheaper) tree.
Arcean Particle Beam 1500 instead of 500
Krynn Particle Beam 1000 instead of 500

Laser (PB after Laser V) -> Particle -> Ion -> Disruptor 3 -> Doom
Drengin     Korath

Laser -> Particle -> Plasma -> Disruptor (PB after Disruptor 1) 3 -> Doom
Krynn       Thalan      Torian

Laser -> Particle -> Plasma -> Disruptor (PB after Disruptor 1) 4 -> Doom
Altarian    Drath

Laser -> Particle -> Plasma -> Phasor (PB after Phasor 1) -> Doom
Arcean      Korx        Terran

Kinetic -> ABW -> Particle -> Plasma -> Phasor (PB after Phasor 1) -> Doom
Iconian

Kinetic -> Particle -> Plasma -> Phasor++ (PB after Phasor 1) -> Doom
Yor

Conclusion:
Evil Drengin/Korath have the best beam weapons, followed by those with disruptors/Yor, then the rest with Iconians, Arcean, and Krynn at the end.

Mass Driver (MD)
MD smaller than Rail Gun but more expensive (same damage)
Ion does same damage as MD and Rail Gun, size scales slightly better than MD, but twice as expensive. Slighly less research than just the MD tree alone.
Scatter Blaster are cheaper and larger than Ion, Rail Gun, and MD. But less than half research cost as Ion alone.
Neutron smaller but more expensive than Pulse. More research than Pulse.
Altarian and Thalan have NO evil mass driver. Drath HAS (after Pulse 3). (BUT see next on Singularity)
Singularity same size as Graviton, less damage (2 vs 3), less cost, but Singularity 4 gives Nano Ripper. About half the research cost of the Graviton tree.

Rail Gun -> MD -> Pulse -> Singularity -> Quantum -> BHG
Altarian    Drath       Thalan

Rail Gun -> MD -> Pulse -> Graviton (PS after Graviton 3) -> Quantum -> BHG
Korx        Krynn       Terran      Torian

MD -> Neutron -> Graviton (PS after Graviton 3) -> Quantum -> BHG
Arcean

Ion -> Pulse -> Graviton (PS after Graviton 3) -> Quantum -> BHG
Drengin     Korath

Scatter Blaster -> AMD -> Pulse -> Graviton (PS after Graviton 3) -> Quantum -> BHG
Iconian

Scatter Blaster -> Pulse -> Graviton (PS after Graviton 3) -> Quantum -> BHG
Yor

Conclusion:
More difficult to draw definitive conclusions here.
In terms of fastest to the mid level guns, Yor and even Iconian with the gimp tech AMD are fastest.
In terms of fastest to high level guns, Altarian/Drath/Thalan are the fastest.
Evil Drath gets evil mass driver fastest.

It seems that Drath has the most advantage, followed by others with Singularity, followed by Iconian/Yor, then Drengin/Korath, then the rest.

Missile
Seeker has less damager (1 vs 2), is smaller and cheaper than Stinger. (Slighty large than half size, and 2/3ish cost). But cheaper to research.

Stinger -> Harpoon (PM after Harpoon 3) -> Photonic 3 -> Photon -> Nightmare
Drath

Stinger -> Harpoon (PM after Harpoon 3) -> Photonic 2 -> Photon -> Nightmare
Altarian    Arcean      Drengin     Korath      Korx        Krynn       Terran      Thalan      Torian

Seeker -> AMW -> Harpoon (PM after Harpoon 3) -> Photonic 2 -> Photon -> Nightmare
Iconian

Seeker -> Harpoon (PM after Harpoon 3) -> Photonic 2 -> Photon -> Nightmare
Yor

Conclusion:
There is little variation between the tech trees. The Yor have a slight advantage over most races, with Iconians and Drath with a slight disadvantage.

Defense

Shield
Arcean Advaned Force Field 2500 instead of 1500.
Arcean Invul 1 3000 instead of 2000.
Arcean Invul 2 5000 instead of 2000.
Arcean Invul 3 5500 instead of 2500.

Shield (SR after Shield 3) -> Barrier (DS after Barrier 3) -> Force Field -> Invulnerability
Altarian    Drath       Thalan

Deflector -> Shield (SR after Shield 3) -> Barrier (DS after Barrier 3) -> Force Field -> Invulnerability
Arcean      Drengin     Iconian     Korath      Korx        Krynn       Terran      Torian      Yor

Conclusion:
Altarian/Drath/Thalans skip the Deflector techs straight. Others don't. Might be an advantage, or not. Either case, Arceans lose big time here.

Armor
Duranth -> Tri-Stront (ABA after Tri-Stront 1) -> Kanv -> Duralthene -> Adamantium -> Zero-Pt
Altarian    Drath       Thalan

Titan -> Duranth -> Tri-Stront (ABA after Tri-Stront 1) -> Kanv -> Duralthene -> Adamantium -> Zero-Pt
Iconian     Korx        Krynn       Terran      Torian      Yor

Titan -> Duranth -> Tri-Stront (ABA after Tri-Stront 1) -> Kanv -> Adamantium
Arcean

Titan -> Duranth -> Tri-Stront (ABA after Tri-Stront 1) -> Kanv -> Duralthene
Drengin     Korath

Conclusion:
Again, Altarian/Drath/Thalans skip the Titianium techs straight. Others don't. Might be an advantage, or not. Either case, Arcean misses Zero-Pt, and Drengin and Korath lose big time on the high end techs.

Point Defense

ECM (TD after ECM) -> PD -> PD Combo -> Droid Sentries -> Aereon
Altarian    Drath       Thalan

Chaff -> ECM (TD after ECM) -> PD -> PD Combo -> Droid Sentries -> Aereon
Arcean      Iconian     Korx        Krynn       Terran      Torian      Yor

Chaff -> ECM (TD after ECM) -> PD -> PD Combo -> Droid Sentries
Drengin     Korath

Conclusion:
Again, Altarian/Drath/Thalans skip the Chaff techs straight. Others don't. Might be an advantage, or not. And, again Drengin and Korath lose.

Overall
Yor, Drengin, Korath, Thalan, Altarian, and Drath weapons tech trees are stronger.
Iconians' and Arceans' defense techs are at the bottom due to extra research needed.

Altarian, Drath, Thalan skip the intro defense tech, which may or may not serve them well. Other than that, no defense tech tree has a clear advantage compare to others. Arcean, Drengin, and Korath lose because of missing high end tech.

The Yor, Thalan, Altarian, and Drath seem to have a pure advantage on pure military techs. Evil Drengin and Korath have a significant bonus because of their laser access to Psionic Beam, though they suffer in the defense tech tree as they miss most of the high end defense techs.

Iconians lose on the offensive tech because of the extra gimp, and Arceans lose on both the weapons and defensive techs because of increased research costs for certain techs.

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I dont think you really thought this out

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Speaking of anaylsis, I came across a thorough analysis of the attack versus defense of DA last year, concluding that defense wasn't viable because it simply wasn't effective enough. I've played a few games and it generally works just loading big guns on big ships. But, I wondered what the general opinion of defense is these days? Do they compare to the strength of weapons in general?

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

But, I wondered what the general opinion of defense is these days?

I suspect that there are several "general opinions" based on play style. I'm very conservative, currently shun tech trading, rarely start wars, and emphasize tech superiority.

These days, in TA, my fleets tend to be smalls and mediums, with mediums dominating after about mid-game. I tend to keep ship defenses between 50-75% of their offensive strength, and by mid-game I usually have at least one secondary defense type if the other civs have not all clustered on one offense type. I do lose a few ships here and there, but usually I end up developing several very experienced fleets that, with upgrades, just keep getting tougher.

I'm sure that the way I like to play is not the most efficient, but it tends to get maps into situations that are still interesting to me even if I don't log massive scores doing it.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Doh--I can't tell if I"m editing or where--a post went to the wrong thread, Edit button is available but no text shows in this edti box.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Well, now it looks like the right thread, but still no joy in FF3 with the Edit button.

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Quoting MarkWarren,

reply 2

Well this might be a one in a life time thing, but did safe me a game.

I was thorian and i was doing good, but then the dregin wich i was trying to avoid a battle since the game started decided i was next, i was lost by then, until i saw i went good on the xeno ethics choice so i quickly go from 0 defences to the especial defences good civs get, by then masses of dregin ships where staring to get to my territory (They were pretty close to me but the fact that they had other wars seem to ahve slow them down), anyways they start to destroy a lot of my ships, they have mediums with almost 16 each if i remember correctly so i start building ships with 4 atack and like 20 defense, always getting higher defences because of the defence bonus and i think i had a military resource, either way i managed to destroy enough of his mediums so that he considered to stop atacking.

Im sure they would have betean me if they would have diverted all his ships to me but still the fact remains that he send a couple of his best mediums (followed by hordes of fighters) and he couldnt beat me cause my ships stayed alive a lot longer. so maybe they are not weapons but the fact that you can put a lot more and reaserch them faster might help.

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Mark Warren:

The analysis you read last year was incomplete. Generally speaking, it doesn't make sense to invest in mediocre and specifically off-type defenses. It's not really that simple a conclusion, though. When the defenses you research are on-type, which is assured if you're researching to counter a specific civ's weaponry, then they're both cheap and effective.

In particular, large enough defenses of the appropriate type can render your ships virtually invulnerable to damage from fleet upon fleet of ships. This is not prohibitive to create. In fact, since you create less ships and need only research the cheap on-type defense tree, it's more effective than attack, since you typically have to upgrade both attack and logistics tech, both of which are individually more expensive than one defense type tech tree.

It's entirely possible to develop invulnerable ships to all of a civ's fleets and mop them up in royal fashion, even at the higher difficulty levels. In fact, sometimes you're going to be pressed to take advantage of this to win.

Generally, fleets do about 50% of thier rated attack in damage per turn. There are factors that modify this, so 60%-75% attack in damage is a safe estimate. If you can make a ship with enough on-type defense to match that, it will be invulnerable to any fleet with any attack up to the rated estimate. You can also use it in off-type defense battles, but the attack treshold will be correspondingly lower.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Roxlimn, IMO this is another case where grand strategies can look all math-good, but when the ions hit the exhaust port, local circumstances can demand doing "the wrong thing." (I guess it's not a good rule unless there are some exceptions to prove it, but folks around here don't seem given to mentioning those exceptions enough for my taste.)

For example, if you get involved in a war very early, before fleets are large or even there, a ship with a 1 in each "off" defense slot is both more versatile and more likely to survive attacks by low-tech enemies. You have to get above a 4 before your primary defense will help more than that in against an off-weapon. You can always upgrade a hull later when the tech context changes enough.

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Certainly, it depends on the situation at hand. I can imagine a situation in which a 1 in each defense is great - essentially 2 defense across the board, which is a sound investment if versatility is your game.

It's a pretty fine line, though. Once you're getting 4 of one type defense, the off-type becomes 2 - the performance is better than 1 of each type for a 1 defense point requirement.

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