I've only been popping my head up once in a while to see how this game is doing.  Didn't know Scathis left (fired?) GPG.  Anyone know where he is now?

The problem is a that General can still hold their own even without their minions, and the minions on their own (or with creep, unless creep strength is set to high) do virtually nothing; they can't cap flags and their damage to enemy demigods (compared with the damage they end up taking) is pitiful also. And let's not get started on tower damage; only the siege archer type minions do anything at all against them. Standard type minions are just fodder if you send them out (General specific minions are a slightly different story usually).

Rather than buying minions at fixed cost for one time use, as I've said before (and will keep saying, god dammit) I'd rather keep the idol system and introduce unit veterancy for keeping your minions alive. That way you don't end up completely wasting your gold but you still get rewarded for meing skillful enough to keep your troops alive.

If general gameplay really is set, I demand a name change for generals.

I think "medic" or "nurse" will be most suitable.

I'm not really concerned with what sort of "genre" features they build upon at this point, I just want to see the game have more depth and play skill / quick thinking involved.  I've played ARPGs and RTS with far more depth, micro, skill, and strategy involved than the game in its current incarnation.

Honestly I don't think the judging is being done by the actual game build we've got to play. Objectively, I know the beta as is would make a pretty shocking release candidate, even without the connectivity issues, and that in itself hasn't got me worried about the final quality of the product. I've always seen the potential for improvement in there and a fairly sturdy foundation to build on for a bright and shiny future because of the early beta policy giving pleanty of voice to the flaws before they're too late to fix.

But so far the beta's not felt very interactive yet. Beta one was the bear basics and we were told as it started that work on beta 2 was already under way and just to give tech feedback. Fine, cool, seems reasonable. Things tick along, we get a few extra versions of beta 1 that bring the gameplay more up to date and can give a little feed back on the assassins but are still told the beta 2 is ticking along behind the scenes and that's what the real gameplay feedback should be on. Information on what was in beta 2 was pretty much non existant until right before it's release.

Now beta 2's out and been through various incarnations, it was a jump from the beta 1xs and fun but there's plenty of issues and debates. We're told it's not the balance beta yet so no balance feedback please. Ok, gameplay feedback it is. The assassins have had a fair bit of love, getting whisked away one version where we're told the devs have "a plan" and returned transformed the next, it never felt like any of the beta players had had a hand in any part of "the plan". Honestly the new skillsets have been good it's just things were done behind the scenes from start to finish and it feels more like proof-reading the final product rather than helping drum up good ideas.

The citadel upgrades and warscore were a little better, they were still unveiled from under a cloth practically finished but we were told about them in advance and given enough information while the next stage was being worked on to give some feedback. The generals were a big gripe though, we were only given the vaguest of information in advance, the majority of what we knew prior to their unveiling was actually gleaned from posted screenshots. They weren't liked. To me it seems biggest concensus about the game so far is that the players want a pretty big change. Modding too has been asked about for a long time, if more quietly.

Now hearing that the dev's are happy with generals and no big changes are on the cards cements the feeling that we're just proof reading the final product again. But as I said, the game we have isn't good enough to be treated like it's final yet, especially with untouched potential shouting in people faces. Maybe beta 3's another amazing leap up but we know next to nothing of it and we've certainly had little say in it if generals have bearly changed. It's like you're starting to wall paper over the cracks in the plaster we've been told to warn you about and we can't scream loud enough.

There's many an experienced (sometimes remoseful) dev who've tried to hammer home the importance fixing things before you build on them further, before they get so hard to fix it's just unviable.

I'm loathe to second guess the reasons why development is forging ahead without smoothing the underlying systems or taking time for feedback but I want to at least air my thoughts.

The officially stated release time is looming now and it's been alluded to that stardock will push back release as far as is needed to. That's awesome, really. But a half-way approach of "try really hard to finish it on time lads, but we'll keep working if it's not done" will inevitably lead to imperfections being put into place and hooked up so they're that much harder to undo if try to fix them, because everyone wants the game as finished as possible by the deadline then they can go back to fix bits and taking longer about it (aside from the ones that are irreversible).

Setting a new, still firm, date as new problems arise at least means people can plan to fix what they have time to and work around/drop what they don't. "Fairly happy" sounds like uncertainty about if there's time to improve them, unless it's trying to treat us with kid gloves untill we're more resigned about them not changing.

I'll stop now before I get slapped. Sorry

[Edit] Wall'o'text needs better proof reading

Ok a couple of random thiongs to point out:

Something about a bad metaphor, a 3/4 bedroom house (what the F is .75 of a bedroom house!) and 1000 owners, called a TIMESHARE FROM HELL!!!!

As for the guy saying this is all "DotA" fans that want DG to be a clone, learn to A) read and B ) know what dota is and isn't. Increasing the strategic depth of a game to make it more like a RTS is leaning away from dota not towards it, as DG is now it's more DotA like than I thought it was going to be, or for that matter, many dissenters want it to be.

Frogboy, that quote make me very sad because we arn't judeging the game as a final release, we are judgeing it as a beta (to use the awful metaphor) we're looking at the house, looking at the walls shape, behind the sawdust, and ignoring the noise and going "This isn't what we ordered, this isn't what you showed us". And it makes me sad on two parts, first it make me sad that the devs and other people controlling this game don't think this is a major part of their community saying "these are our worries", and part two that you don't see that we are looking through the beta, we read those "this beta does not represent its final product watermarks", but we are adding "but show what we are currently planning" which considering we pre-ordered the game is reasonable.

All of this, evreything, all these arguments, all these accusations and, "I want my pre order back"s can be fixed by simply talking with us, it's something you've been known to do as a company, you have a good rep for it (GPG as well, at least partially). We bought the pre order because we wanted to be involved. We have people here who are posting ideas (really good ideas, with back up, support, documenttation, examples and more) and people who are saying modding should be in the game because it's good, it's proven to be good, and hindering it is a bad idea. Listen to what your community says, and talk to your community, we're here because we want to be, because we want something good to happen.

Not quite sure what you mean with the Starcraft reference.  It did have modding...

This is the expected response from a dev/pub 'renowned' for its customer interaction? I want to keep the faith, I really do, but more and more my suspicions get promoted to concerns. Alas, such is life. 

There's no excuse, in my opinion, for no modding support in this day and age, even if said support is only simple balance-scripting or map-making. It's all well and good expecting to be the next Starcraft, and it's nice to have high expectations, but it increasingly seems like they expect high rewards, not high quality product. And one sure fire way to help with having a good product is letting the player change it, and listening to their feedback. So far, we seem to be getting vague answers of indifference and passive-aggressive remarks. 

Others have articulated the flaws with the idol system much better than I can, so it seems redundant to repeat the sentiments. What I will say is that I think the UI is currently not supportive of minions in any decent manner. Any thing I do with the minions feels like I'm stepping outside of normal expectations, and not an intuitive command of a general. As for the numbers, it's more squad leader than general at the moment, and not a crack squad, to boot.

mod support isn't a big deal to bring in; it was, afterall, a primary feature of the Moho Engine. i might remind everyone that DG runs off a direct descendant of the Moho Engine.

no modding is purely a political decision; not a technical one.

I might also point out that you misinterpreted what I said. I said that anything can change between now and release. I didn't mention two months because that may not be when the game is actually released.

As per this post by Frogboy the release date could be pushed back if they chose to do so. Like to include my patented bunny-crossbow!

But you plainly stated you don't care what anyone else says, which presumably includes the people in charge of making the darn thing.

Modding can certainly help a game that lacks longevity of its own but I think you'll find most games that end up with good modding communities are those based on solid foundations - the original game itself. And the original game is what most people are going to be forking out their cash for. The sales may still dribble in with mod support but I don't think there's near as much money in that as people seem to think there is.

Have you looked at warcraft 3 lately? At least half of all games played through that are mods, if not more. Just look at any of the default channles, no one has ranks anymore 1 out of like 4 people actually have a special icon.

Don't forget that the whole DoTA concept started from SC in Aeon of Strife maps.