yeah, i'm not gonna lie. I don't voice every exploit in this game. I gotta keep a couple for myself don't I?

Oh no, not about the seeker, I mean when I made the unit guide and looked at stats, I had revalations about what does and doesn't work. Or better said, which race has the best of what.

HC can be countered by more than just bombers.  They can be countered with support cruisers too such as guardians and subverters.  They can also be countered with some cap ship abilities such as MB and cleansing brilliance just like any other unit.  The difference is that by the time HC come along you are further along in research and can use more options to deal with them.  The big problem that I have is that you don't get to open those doors because you can't research much because you are trying to fight back scout and LF spam with your own LF spam or SB.  I will agree that HC are not a very viable option because you have to research even higher than other things and HC go down pretty quick when outnumbered 10 or 20 to 1.  I have tried it before with varying success depending on the amount of feed I got because I wanted something that was going to counter but be useful later on in the game if it proceeded.  The issue is not one of scouts being useful 30 minutes later.  The issue is getting to 30 minutes without drowning in a sea of scouts and LF.  Those 40+ each scouts and LF can pick off easily HC that are being built without ever getting a critical mass for turning the tide.  They can take down a SB if they can catch it building.  That mass of crap is still a significant amount of meat to cut through eventually regardless of whats built afterwards.

And as to your point on LRFs and carriers, illuminators are tier 3 and just as expensive to tech so your point is moot.  The point about flak making fighters less useful is valid however.  IMO, fighters die way too quickly still to any amount of flak.  As to your point on flak as a counter to illums, it could be very effective even with shield regen especially with vasari.  JJ has griped before about the vasari flak ability(blanking on the name) not affecting frigates anymore.....that was why.

The scout/LF spammers don't generally put their labs into econ either instead.  They spend the money on more scouts and LF to crush their enemy.

[_]-Greyfox

Cap ship take awhile to kill a lf especially a large amount.

7750 in creds for your 2nd cap which equals 39 scouts(advent or tec) or 17 lf.By the time you save enuf and spend it on a cap he has already fielded those ships and is pounding you with them.Plus he has a cap too.3rd cap is even more expensive.Even 20 or so lf can wear down a level 1 or 2 cap fairly quick without repair bays.Especially if he has a carrier cap with bombers.

There is only one anti-very heavy unit in this game. That's bombers. The only thing outside of HC's that qualifies as a counter to HC's is other HC's. Saying support cruisers to me is not a valid arguement.  They can be used against anything, but you need something that is the actual anti-very heavy dealer. Do lrf's do it? Yes, but pure HC's vs. Pure LRFs (except in Illum vs. Enforcers), should lead to HC victory.

Saying the support cruiser can be used to me is not a direct counter, but more blanket counter  that can be used against  anything. The difference is everything in this game must have a direct counter, and everything does.

I know you're a seasoned vet online. This is just the tempo of the game. The guy using the lf/scout fleet is choosing to hit you early and hard, and forcing you to make a decision to win. No other fleet hits faster than the lf/scout fleet, but there's plenty that hits harder than can push it back.

The whole online gaming experience is about fast pace, so it's only natural that this strategy has become popular, but unlike the old popular strategy of spamming illums, this time there's actually a counter to the newly found love for the very early rush fleet.

Last, I guess I don't have a problem using a tactic if I know it's going to work. Do I have a natural affinity towards certain ships? Sure. I love using Assailants, but that doesn't change the fact that the overriding factor is building your fleet to counter your opponents. I don't care if I don't get to open those doors. All that matters is the win. This is pretty much the reason I started using scouts. People would 99% of the time rush lrfs, so I would 99% of the time spam scouts to stomp the spam, but I knew never to build scouts if the enemy wasn't rushing lrfs. I don't have an issue with this. If it aint broke, don't fix it. 

That is avoidable. I like playing more economically. I will micro when needed, but if given the option, I like to play to get an empire first, and THEN steamroll someone, instead of hitting someone early and taking their empire early so their "would be" empire becomes mine.

This doesn't work though if I'm not prepped for the rush. I have always voiced that scouting is the most powerful tactic in this game. If you know what your opponent is doing, you know what you should be doing. If you see the fleet starting to form (say 20+ scouts and 10+ light frigs), you know you have to build a fleet yourself or your dead. It's that simple. Keep a fleet so you can counter him when he does come.

If you know it's coming, that means you can get a carrier cap and a repair bay where you think the rush is gonna hit. LF's + scouts can't destroy buildings for shit, which is also why a turret or two isn't a bad idea. I like to build 1 or 2 repair bays and then say 1-3 turrets wherever I think the guy is gonna hit first. It does wonders.

A sova, halcyon, or a skirantra mixed with your fleet stops the lf/scout rush cold. Not to mention repair bays are tier 2 or lower, however the progen is like a mobile repair bay, as is the skirantra, and then tec get the best repair bays.

A carrier cap will do drastic things to this rush. Unfortunately, since the rush comes so early, your best option in terms of frigates is light frigates, since his scouts won't do jack to them, and this means you can just micro his lf's away with your larger lf fleet. 

I don't think you understand my reasoning here. Carriers are expensive, and cost wise are a bit more expensive than lrfs.

1 Drone host

1280 cred, 230 metal, 220 crystal

5 lrms

1375 cred, 225 metal, 125 crystal

It's not much, but when you consider that the carrier takes forever to be built, and that for TEC and Vasari it's tier 3, requires a third lab and more money on research, and then you have to wait on the strikecraft to be built (AKA no direct IMMEDIATE impact to the battlefield), And THEN if flak come out you essentially have 5 carriers dead in the water gobbling up 100 ship slots providing little impact to the battlefield.

Here's my arguement. Why would you ever go straight fighters as a rush? You can't damage buildings, and if your opponent builds anything besides lrfs, you fleet is going to doing 50% of the damage it possibly could. I don't rush carriers, but the arguement for using carriers to fight off a lrf rush requires equal investment in the carriers, so that essentially makes me have to rush carriers. That's just something I don't do. Maybe that's just me.

I never really felt flak should counter any type of frigate, so while I understand the grievance here, it's something that I don't really feel the loss. Flak multipliers are horrible, so I only turn to these ships when I need to counter fighters.

Vasari flak actually do the least dps of all the races. Advent have the best flak. TEC are second. It's not hard to beat back a flak spam. I know a lot of people would continue making lrfs against  flak, but I feel the need to switch to light frigs in said situation. Overall, I feel it's an even kilter battle were the more experienced player will probably win. Neither is designed to counter the other, however can be effective, but not as effective as the ship that's designed to counter.

"Scissors: OMFG NERF ROCK! ITz SO BR0K3N!!1!
Paper: I think rock is fine."

from Battlesnake's sig from CO...doubt he'd mind me posting it here...