Angry?  No.  Personally, I think Bioware has been on a downward trend for the last couple of years.

But explain this then.  How is "going to four areas" a cliche?

It's not.  It's just a common element in Bioware games, and a totally arbitrary one at that.  You have to neglect large portions of the games to say that there are only four areas in each game.  For it to be a cliche, there have to be large numbers of examples outside of Bioware games that use it, enough so that it's a commonly understood structure.  Facts not in evidence.

This is the clearest example of something that was put in to pad the chart because a ) the originator is angry at Bioware and b ) the originator doesn't understand the meaning of the word cliche.

The contempt that the lead writer has is for *you* and those like you.

I think I share it.

(edited for frakking smiley interpreter)

I don't think he really meant cliché (although, technically, it COULD be a cliché if it was overused enough... which it is within Bioware itself), I think it should've just said, "Common elements of Bioware storylines", which is essentally achieving the same thing.

There are four main areas that you can choose to go to within all the games, four "plot threads" so to speak. Essentially the same thing.

Explained above.

Ah, people who want an original game design, instead of laziness and a general trend of becoming hacks. Yeah, I can understand why he'd hate someone who wants him to do a decent job. That might require WORK.

Except, it's not. It's focused on the specific elements that're carried through Bioware RPGs. The monomyth is VERY, VERY generic (but requires a pretty specific order) and contains elements not mentioned within this thread.

Go look it up instead of claiming it's all a part of the monomyth.

Oh, you know, backstabbing and twists you can see coming from almost a mile away, like the you-are-Revan and Bastila-turns-Sith scenes from KotOR and the Kreia-is-an-evil-Sith scene from KotOR2 (made by Obsidian, but used BioWare's story style).

I haven't played far enough into NWN2 to discover anything resembling a storyline (got the mountains past Neverwinter, but that's it) or played NWN at all, so someone else should tell me what the twist and/or backstab is.

But the Witcher is a male, that just wouldn't work. Thats not serious btw, I usually play females (and no, they arn't all lesbians) so I appreciate that feature.

I actually liked NWN2, but it was happered by the DnD setting which is too... tech fantasy, at this point.

While I edited that post to indicate it was a 'joke' (imagine a smiley face after all of my sentences or something), "The Witcher" is based on the books and that is about the male character so it would be strange to tell a story about 'the witcher' as a female... ya know?

Heh, I see that. My apologies. I get that comment all the time so i figured you were being serious at not taking my complain seriously.

Well sure I understand that  (about the book), but it's not like it's alone in the problem. I love being able to play a female character in RPGs, and not just as a skin but the fact that in Bioware games, gender is actually acknowledged. I mean some of the Might and Magic games let you choose a female but it didn't really matter. It was just a generic story. Boy you think Bioware games are cliche, try some of the older western rpgs and the jrpgs not too long ago.

It was all the same. I've been a fan of the Breath of Fire series, and that game always starts the same, some blue haired kid, normal life, suddenly turned upside down by monsters, oh and by the way, he's a dragon but doesn't know it. Really though I don't mind the repeat.

Back to these niche RPGs primarily coming out of Europe, a lot of them  are male centric, male only games with absolutely no attempt to cater to female gamers. In this decade, that matters to me. Now I primarily play female characters, but not always. I keep waiting for a game to come out and allow me to play a huge black male minotaur wielding a battleaxe and showing attitude where-ever I go. That's not going to happen. Hell Bioware pretty much wants some boring generic human to star in all their games now. blah.

It's obvious you lack the basic level of intelligence needed to look at time stamps on a forum thread before making wild accusations. Furthermore I'd have thought it would be fairly obvious I was responding to you given how I kept on quoting what you were saying and responding to your posts. There's a big difference between providing a link to a side that points out some similarities between games and outright stating that every game is exactly the same. But then, you seem to have a penchant for making outlandish claims with little to no substance in them.

Finally that chart you included is fairly laughable - just playing around with the first row you can have them all different (at least for the ones I've played out of the list): BG2: You are the son of a god, a hero, and have beaten many powerful foes

NWN: You are the top student in an academy of heroes, without equal amongst your peers, trained while there to be able to save your city from destruction

KOTOR: You're the evil ruler of the galaxy responsible for many henious crimes, but are suffering from amnesia (or something similar, can't remember the precise details). Even at the start when you're not aware of the full details you're given hints that there's something else other than you just being some faceless person

Jade Empire: You think you're just a peasant but in reality you're the last child of an order or ruler or something (can't remember now)

DA: Origins: You're the youngest son of a proud noble family, and are betrayed by a family friend, seeing your parents cut down as you flee for your life

I'm struggling to see those are exactly the same. Some have twists about who you are, some don't. In some you start off in a position of power, in others you start from nothing.

What is the main similarity though? In all of them you start off at your weakest, and over the course of the game you gain skills and become stronger. What a surprise, given they're all RPGs!

I also had to laugh at one of the later points 'you have 2 companions of martial+magical prowess'. Who'd have thought - an RPG which allows noticeably different gameplay roles (i.e. mage, warrior), and then when it gives you companions it allows you to experience this variety rather than giving you a choice of 10 identical warrior companions, and no mages/rogues. That's almost nothing to do with story, and everything to do with gameplay and good game design.

With that sort of logic, 99% of RPGs are the same - you start off with few skills. You pursue some goal which ultimately ends up with either the fate of many depending on you, and by the time you save the world/city/race etc. you're very powerful. Oh and the game's final battle will be with some evil protaganist who is meant to be very powerful. You will also get a choice of how you progress your skills, and if you have companions to help you they will tend to hail from a variety of backgrounds with different roles (some may be mages, others warriors, others thieves).

Sure, taken individually the critique made on each point can lead you in a certain direction. Now start to combine them and see a bigger picture emerge. We're talking choice, at a fundamental level here. Small changes accumulate toward a larger paradigm shift. But they have to start somewhere. Start shaking off the old, that's all I was pointing out. This list of 10 took me maybe half an hour? Now give a team this kind of mindset, and give them months. Look at where we could go!

Wow, I am amazed at the emotional response this thread has evoked.  I haven't replied until now, but I just want to say I happen to enjoy Biowares games.

I am not a game developer, a graphic artist, a programmer, or anyone involved in the making of games.  I just wanted to throw that out there since some people feel the need to post a resume before giving an opinion.  I am just someone who enjoys playing games in my free time.

That said, I personally enjoy all their games.  I try to enjoy them for what they are and not put too much thought into the development process.  go ahead and flame me if you want, but I like them.  I also like chocolate ice cream too if you want to flame me for that.

I agree, it could all go horribly awry. But I too think it's still worth trying, for to stop trying is worse than to try and fail. In other words...

“Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.” - Theodore Roosevelt

OK, well, I think some people are equating "structure" to "story", which isn't a good thing to do.

However, I do agree that Bioware should at least experiment with a different formula. The Intro, 4 Places, Twist, End does lend itself to predictability. Formulas aren't necessarily bad. I love House even though it's the exact same episodes over and over again. But I'd love a more explorative RPG like Planescape: Torment or Baldur's Gate I or II.

That being said... well... I simply love the Planescape Torment characters. Even the shittiest of them are some of the most complex, entertaining, or in the case of Annah downright sexy characters of gaming history. Truly. I don't think games now have characters as awesome. I'd rather Bioware ditch generic protagonist backgrounds and let the player start out with a single well-written character.

Dammit... who wants to make a dialogue and character heavy RPG with me?