Any interest in orienting things towards being an eSport?

By on March 4, 2015 10:41:06 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Tetheta

Join Date 06/2014
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Seems like a cool game with a lot of really well-qualified people developing it. However, most of the games I find myself actually spending much time playing nowadays are eSports on at least some level. I'm just curious if any thought has been given to that side of things (ladder system, etc).

Secondly, what is the average play time for a 1v1 match? I enjoyed playing SoaSE but the amount of time to play a single game was kind of prohibitive for my schedule.

Regardless, looks like an awesome game and I wish you guys success!

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March 5, 2015 1:54:53 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I think Servo (www.servogame.com) lends itself more that way. With Ashes, it's a tougher thing of the scale. But we shall see.

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March 5, 2015 2:17:00 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Wow, Frogboy, nice to see you again.

Last time I remember you was in the discussion forums from Demigod. That was a real cool game, unfortunately the support in form of new arenas, demigods etc.

was tuned down quite soon after release

But great game it was....

 

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March 5, 2015 3:02:45 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Please don't. This looks like a large scale RTS that I've been waiting for. I want something where strategic and tactical genius triumphs over twitch reflexes.

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March 5, 2015 10:44:27 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Wintercross,

Please don't. This looks like a large scale RTS that I've been waiting for. I want something where strategic and tactical genius triumphs over twitch reflexes.

Why do you think strategic and tactical genius cannot be an esport? Also as an RTS where you control stuff in real time there always will be at least some

component of reacting fast.

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March 5, 2015 2:21:43 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Wintercross,

Please don't. This looks like a large scale RTS that I've been waiting for. I want something where strategic and tactical genius triumphs over twitch reflexes.

Totaly agreed. As for now, eSports orientation ruined too many RTS games. In fact, vain attempts to feed off Starcraft table brought an entire genre to near-collapse stage in any reasonable sense, including sales. If anyone will ever write the Ten Commandments to RTS Developer, the first one should be "Thou shalt not build Starcraft". Also, there's an organized and very aggressive mob who will repeatedly attempt to convince devs and guys here around that eSports and click-per-second gameplay is the only way to go for any RTS. That's not the first time they're trying to bend multiplayer rules to their advantage by enforcing twitch-oriented gameplay - they did it with almost every single RTS game released in last 15 years, and almost always successfully. If developers will ever listen to their propaganda, this game will end the same way as Planetary Annihilation did - with immense resources wasted on micron-precise unit balancing, bad sales, bad reviews and mentioned mob (~ 50 ppl) as a whole population of multiplayer servers, who will anyway move on after picking the next game for raiding. By the way, some of the people who actively participated in Planetary Annihillation's downfall are already here.

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March 6, 2015 10:52:30 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ColaColin,


Quoting Wintercross,

Please don't. This looks like a large scale RTS that I've been waiting for. I want something where strategic and tactical genius triumphs over twitch reflexes.



Why do you think strategic and tactical genius cannot be an esport? Also as an RTS where you control stuff in real time there always will be at least some

component of reacting fast.

 

When people speak of Esports, it is most generally short, quick matches. ie: games like Starcraft other other short term, reaction based RTS.

I prefer a slower paced, more tactical and strategic RTS, where planing ahead and well thought out strategy trumps being able to micromanage units. It doesn't lend itself well to Esports type settings. 

Basically, I want to be able to plan strategy and execute plans without having to micro my units just to have a chance at winning.
Of course thats not to say you shouldn't be able to micromanage units if you want... guess what I'm saying is I do not want Starcraft on a larger scale. I want something more akin to Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance.

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March 6, 2015 11:11:06 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Wintercross,

Of course thats not to say you shouldn't be able to micromanage units if you want... guess what I'm saying is I do not want Starcraft on a larger scale. I want something more akin to Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance.

I see that makes sense. I think FA worked great as a competitive RTS, it obviously wasn't as big as Starcraft, but aiming to be that big is bound to fail anyway.

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March 6, 2015 10:26:28 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I hope not. We do not need an Esport RTS, that would ruin it for as large group of RTS fans. Personally looking at it, reminds me a lot of Supreme Commander, but bigger. Awesome!!!!!

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March 7, 2015 4:02:00 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting GeneralGonzo,

Wow, Frogboy, nice to see you again.

Last time I remember you was in the discussion forums from Demigod. That was a real cool game, unfortunately the support in form of new arenas, demigods etc.

was tuned down quite soon after release

But great game it was....

 

Yea, Demigod was a missed opportunity imo.  Ashes, unlike Demigod, is a Stardock game (As in, we own it). So no worries there.

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March 7, 2015 8:58:30 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Demigod was a ton of fun, and I still play lan with my brothers (on legit copies to boot! ~ re-purchased on steam )

Please don't make this into an esports focused game. That's great for people with lots of free time, but rough on those of us who want to play casually on the weekends with friends (and occasionally like to play other games... .galciv 3...).

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March 8, 2015 12:06:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It doesn't seem like a game that would lend itself to e-sports - but MP could be extremely fun - not unlike SupCom and Sins. They're ideal games to get your feet wet with online MP RTS because they are slower paced and not twitch/APM skill-based and are easier for 4x or turn based players to relate to.

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March 9, 2015 6:15:02 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ekko_Tek,

It doesn't seem like a game that would lend itself to e-sports - but MP could be extremely fun - not unlike SupCom and Sins. They're ideal games to get your feet wet with online MP RTS because they are slower paced and not twitch/APM skill-based and are easier for 4x or turn based players to relate to.

 

I had fun, long drawn out battles that could easily last hours playing Sup Com with my brothers. We usually self limited the 'game ender' type units =P

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March 23, 2015 10:28:04 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Wintercross,



When people speak of Esports, it is most generally short, quick matches. ie: games like Starcraft other other short term, reaction based RTS.

I prefer a slower paced
don't we all. what you said above is just a preconception people have. How about changing that and showing the world that e-sports can lend themselves to more intelligent, impressive things?

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April 20, 2015 2:40:28 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting ,

Seems like a cool game with a lot of really well-qualified people developing it. However, most of the games I find myself actually spending much time playing nowadays are eSports on at least some level. I'm just curious if any thought has been given to that side of things (ladder system, etc).

Secondly, what is the average play time for a 1v1 match? I enjoyed playing SoaSE but the amount of time to play a single game was kind of prohibitive for my schedule.

Regardless, looks like an awesome game and I wish you guys success!
Why does it have to be E-sport? What is wrong with good old classic campaign?

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April 21, 2015 12:06:54 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting tatsujb,


Quoting Wintercross,



When people speak of Esports, it is most generally short, quick matches. ie: games like Starcraft other other short term, reaction based RTS.

I prefer a slower paced

don't we all. what you said above is just a preconception people have. How about changing that and showing the world that e-sports can lend themselves to more intelligent, impressive things?

 

Sounds nice in theory, but people often have short attention spans. If you could get e-sports to be interested in several hour long campaigns then that would be great.

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April 21, 2015 1:41:39 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Most of e-sports games are fast paced games, no one want to sit and watch a 3 hour game... well anyway i don't care about that, AOTS can be part of an E-sport game, then it will be fun, but who is going to Decide that? well its us the players, so what i really hope for AOTS is to do really well and sell millions of copies so it can get a lot of support from the Community, Developers and Publishers.

Good luck AOTS, I will be waiting to see a gorgeous game with awesome gameplay.

 

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April 21, 2015 7:50:16 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Wintercross,

If you could get e-sports to be interested in several hour long campaigns then that would be great.

This is not even conceptually possible. E-sports game by design must have positive feedback linkage, i.e. it should be full of game-changing action, first and foremost on the small scale. It is required to be dramatic in order to keep attention, since people outside the game process have no need to take any decisions and aren't obliged to have deep game knowledge to understand general situation, but can and will get into small details - and those details alone should be entertaining in successful e-sports title. As a result, any such game is interesting to watch but not accessible to the people who don't have any talent and willing to invest years into training, who are, needless to say, constitute a vast majority. Such situation is not unique to e-sports - they share similarity with classic sports in this. For long campaign-like conquests, the opposite design paradigm is the best - strong negative feedback that prevents game situation from dramatic change and makes it irresponsive to any small execution errors, thus focusing on rewarding players for general planning only.

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April 21, 2015 10:53:41 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting KaneTiberian,



Quoting Wintercross,

If you could get e-sports to be interested in several hour long campaigns then that would be great.


This is not even conceptually possible. E-sports game by design must have positive feedback linkage, i.e. it should be full of game-changing action, first and foremost on the small scale. It is required to be dramatic in order to keep attention, since people outside the game process have no need to take any decisions and aren't obliged to have deep game knowledge to understand general situation, but can and will get into small details - and those details alone should be entertaining in successful e-sports title. As a result, any such game is interesting to watch but not accessible to the people who don't have any talent and willing to invest years into training, who are, needless to say, constitute a vast majority. Such situation is not unique to e-sports - they share similarity with classic sports in this. For long campaign-like conquests, the opposite design paradigm is the best - strong negative feedback that prevents game situation from dramatic change and makes it irresponsive to any small execution errors, thus focusing on rewarding players for general planning only.


 

Well yeah, that is why I am against tailoring this game for E-Sports, because like you said E-Sports by their nature require a large pay off in a short amount of time to maintain interest of the observers.

I was just saying, if you COULD make E-Sports types interested in slow paced games then I would have no issue with that... but generally I would rather this game is more slow paced tactical and strategic game rather than the rush of twitch based action per minute type RTS like Starcraft and similar.

I want something more like SC: Forged Alliance. 

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May 1, 2015 1:10:15 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Wintercross,

I want something more like SC: Forged Alliance. 

 

FA is almost an e-sport if you count FAF. well.... short of a couple thousand players and followers but it's like aaaaaaaaaaallmost there.

 

Quoting Wintercross,

Sounds nice in theory, but people often have short attention spans. If you could get e-sports to be interested in several hour long campaigns then that would be great.

well i can understand how watching somebody beat an ai has no pull. Against an ai there's no measuring stick. You don't know whether what he did is impressive or rather boring (hint it really isn't impressive to beat an ai. Untill a real singularity happens all "ai" are just "programed computer opponent that can be somewhat adaptive but always inferior to a human".). So by default, you assume that, yeah, it isn't.

 

Now on the other hand PvP will always be interesting because there's a measuring stick: ...."WOW! This guys beat this guy?!?" - "Yeah but THEN, he was beaten by THIS guy".

 

and I honestly think it would please the e-sport public to discover some longer lasting matches. some more in-depth strategy. Something they can actually relate to and understand. 

 

Starcraft pro-level right now for the uninitiated and sometimes as well for the regulars at a more rookie level is some voodoo black magic, that even the commentators don't understand and can't keep up with. The only ones that truly understand what's going on are the two players.

And I think it could really come as a breath of fresh air to the public that it doesn't have to be that way.

 

 

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May 5, 2015 1:30:00 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

We're not really aiming to be an e-sport out of the gate. If the game does well and lots of folks pull it in that direction, we'll look to support that more.

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