Artillery warfare like in Supreme Commander?

By on April 4, 2015 11:28:41 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Scopuli

Join Date 11/2007
+1

So, Was just talking to someone about whether this game has Artillery Warfare.  Cant find any reference to it, but I still come back to SupCom2 for the massive shields and all around beautiful artillery warfare.  Does this game have something like that?

Locked Post 29 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2015 11:13:25 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting ,

So, Was just talking to someone about whether this game has Artillery Warfare.  Cant find any reference to it, but I still come back to SupCom2 for the massive shields and all around beautiful artillery warfare.  Does this game have something like that?
artillery warfare in supreme commander FA started at minute 50 something like that, sometimes after an hour, and the shields would hold off for some 10 mins before falling, so basically it could be a game ender at the hour mark, which was good. 

 

in SupCom 2 it started after the 7 minute mark or something like that and could never bring down shields. So it was just a permanent necessity of SupCom2 that would cause you to loose if you didn't conform and WASN'T a game ender, which was bad.

 

can we please agree that SupCom 2's solution for artillery was absolutely atrocious and painstaking and a chore while FA's interpretation made alot of sence gameplay-wise and allowed for deep dynamics.

 

t2 arty was close range firebase on firebase and a good anti-navy weapon. t3 arty could kill the commander by eventually breaking through the shields or harass the resources or troops all around the map.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 7, 2015 12:47:45 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

read this

 

Quoting KaneTiberian,

1. Will player in AotS be able to build units they researched in any quantity (except, probably, technical per-player unit limit), as in any other TA-based game?

>>>>> 2. Will long-range weapons, like artillery that reaches other side of the map, or ballistic missiles, be present in AotS? <<<<<

3. Will AotS defensive structures in appropriate numbers be potentially able to block any type of attack, including long-range weapons like ICBM or artillery, if present, like in SupCom?

4. Given that terrain engine is fully morphable, will AotS feature terraforming, like Zero-K?

5. Will AotS feature in-place economic options, like TA/SupCom's metal fabricators?

6. Does Nitrous Engine support fully 3D (i.e. possibly multi-level) maps, or it uses heightmap-based landscape? If multi-level maps is supported, will they make an appearance in AotS?

 

1. The economy is essentially the same as TA.  That is, as you build things, it's consuming resources as they're built.

>>>>> 2. Not on the bigger maps.  AFTER ea begins, we will take feedback on whether we need to have such mega weapons. We would like to avoid that though. <<<<<

3. We don't currently have ABMs in.  I doubt 1.0 will have something like that.  The nice thing is, Ashes is the START of a series so as players get into it, we'll be able to extend it from there.

4. We don't plan to do that.  We want the strategy to focus on using the terrain and resources as opposed to changin git.

5. We do not plan to allow players to convert power into metal.  What we have, instead, are refineries which magnify how much metal you already have stored (i.e. they take your stored metal and turn it into more, like a compound interest).

6. They're fully 3D, multi-level to the point where having the high ground really matters. The ballistics model is very realistic (one of the developers used to work on simulations for the military).

 

I guess Frogboy means that they will have some kind of short, medium range artillery for defense purposes.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 9, 2015 12:37:34 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Depends on the map size.  On the largest maps, no, artillery won't reach the other side. They're just too big.  But on the smaller maps, we'll see.  It depends really on how small we want the smallest maps to be.

I could write a whole article on why we want to avoid the end game nuke vs. ABM thing.  We think we have a solution for this situation.  In TA, there was no limit on how many buildings you can build.  Starcraft has the same issue.  But in Ashes, you have to have power and only the planetary power generators provide that power and they have to be captured.

As a result, someone WILL win.  We also have victory points on some maps that if one player dominates the map, they will ultimately win.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 10, 2015 5:19:00 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I like to see an article explaining how artillery work in the game, or maybe wait for the alpha to see it ourself.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 11, 2015 9:50:53 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

But in Ashes, you have to have power and only the planetary power generators provide that power and they have to be captured.

Sounds like my greatest concert about Ashes got suddenly confirmed. From statement above it follows that game will have strict artificial limits to base building just like Sins' tactical/logistics slots, ruling out any viable possibility of turtling. Absence of stalemates also sounds suspicious - stalemate is a pretty normal outcome that happens in real wars very often when no side have power enough to crush its enemy. It's good that I'm not a founder yet, given the risk to spend another $100 for a game that's not intended to match my play style, as with Planetary Annihilation.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 11, 2015 4:35:34 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

No, it definitely doesn't sound like turtling is a possibility.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 12, 2015 2:54:29 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

i'm with kane on this.

What the dev's are doing to me sounds great but its not my play-style at all. I like to secure an area, fortify it, and then only move back to that area if i am overwhelmed, or flanked etc.

I find games where i have to defend everything, all the time actually stressful. If i was good at it, i'm sure i would enjoy it, but i don't.

 

FA, and to a lesser degree soase don't reward me for this approach, but they also don't heavily penalize me (i have shields, arty, experimentals and fabs to assist in my defense).

 

It sounds like this will be a great game, but one for people that are able to take in the entire game all the time, and i cannot see how this will not be an all out rush game, because territory largely determines your income, and once your behind on that, thats it. your fighting an uphill battle. The only way to compensate for this is to have disproportionately strong static defenses available, like KKND did.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
April 12, 2015 10:42:45 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Well have you played company of Heroes? that kind of play style will be AOTS, but in a way bigger scale, i am saying that because of what i understood by reading about AOTS

Lets say the faster player to get more Territory will build faster units and have more buildings, and that's fine for me of course the developers need to find a way for the other player to have options to take the territory from the first player who took it, that's were the strategy comes, it should be a way.

 

let me do and example here: Player1 send fast units to expand the territory, by doing that he will get more income and more options to build faster everything while player2 start the game by building its main base first. 10 minutes after starting the game.  player1 may have more buildings and more units. but player2 have less building and less units but the units are more advanced so  player2 will send his units to conquer territory by making some good strategies on what units so send and where... player 1 will be waiting to defend that territory he took first with his units.

Player1 have 1000 while player2 have 500 but more advanced units.. so it may be a 50/50 chance of wining or loosing depending on the strategy the player will use.

But what worry me about AOTS is, if player1 take 10 new territory in the first 10 minutes and player2 takes 5 then player1 will be way more powerful by building and researching everything at 2x the speed than player2, it means that the game is done and there is no way for player22 to win that game at all.

So developers need to find a way for player2 to do something to gain territory slowly with a good strategy. at least to make it possible, if not AOTS will not last too much time before making he general player quit the game for good and leave just the elites playing.

AOTS should be made for Pro and Regular player, every player need to have a way to win back territory. It not fun at all to loose a game in the first 10 minutes because the pro player got all the territory without giving the regular player the opportunity to win territory back.

I am sure Oxide will do something about that. so lets wait till July to try the game

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 13, 2015 11:42:00 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Count me on the side of Kane and Bristol as well, me and my friends greatly prefer the traditional TA / Sup Com approach of allowing easier resource management through conversion and reclaimation abilities.  We don't really play competitively its mostly a few of us up against a huge number of AI, and we want to build a huge base and amass an army to invade the fortified enemy.  It's probably why games like Starcraft and Company of Heroes never really meshed with us, it was all about expanding territory and fighting on multiple fronts.  

 

Hopefully there will at least be cheats or perhaps a sandbox type of mode so we can have our fun.  It's fine if the AI gets affected just as we do, its not like we are trying to steamroll we just want to build the way we want to build without having to eat up the entire map.  I'll be keeping an eye on this as we have been itching for a new RTS to take over Sup Com 2.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 16, 2015 6:51:05 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Same as Qwell01, most of my group are not "fast" players, and not in a comparative way (may be after 25 years of play all sorts of games we are getting too old for that ). For many RTS games, we also enjoy building a huge and well organized base (best achieved in SupCom series) and a balanced approach to attack/defense. I'm glad that here comes the game that gives SupCom a new life, but I'd like to see more options to suit different play styles. I played CoH but didn't get as much enjoyment as when I played traditional RTS games like TA/SUpCom etc. I hope to see the options of allowing change the number of defensive structure each zone or even better, SupCom style of base building/management, so each Zone can have a mini base and will be able to sustain a reasonable amount of punishment until reinforcement comes, at least comparable to SoAE, some how I can defend "my territory", without fighting a mobile warfare all over the map. Since the scale of the game is so big, I thinks this will give a good sense of progression and conquering and "empire" building.  Qwell01 has put it well:"

Quoting Qwell01,

we just want to build the way we want to build without having to eat up the entire map. I'll be keeping an eye on this as we have been itching for a new RTS to take over Sup Com 2.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 19, 2015 6:11:13 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

The pacing of Ashes is more like Sins of a Solar Empire. It's not about how fast you move. It's about where you put your units.

But at the same time, we're not going to have units that can just do long-range pummeling while the player turtles around it. NO BIG BERTHAs in this game.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
May 19, 2015 7:29:08 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

That's fine with me as long as its going to be fun to play from start to end.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 12, 2015 10:30:52 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I agree that pacing in some games becomes frenetic, but I love Sins and found the pacing to be spot on in each iteration of the game.  There were lots of strategies you could employ to reinforce your defenses.  I also liked Sins implementation of end game super-weapons and super techs.  I felt like they gave you solid boost at a point in the game where things could have dragged on indefinitely. 

Unfortunately, turtlers will always be at a disadvantage compared to someone employing more varied tactics.  There's a reason why soldiers are told to keep moving during combat.  It's because eventually, no matter how well you dig in, someone is going to dislodge you one way or another; either through sheer will power, advanced technology, superior tactics, or a combination thereof.  That's the nature of modern and future warfare.  We simply no longer live in an age of medieval castles and crude siege weaponry and I do not think we ever will given how fast technology advances. 

Also, who really has the time to (or wants to) invest 2 hours in a game just to hit a stalemate?  How is that enjoyable for you or your opponent?  My suggestion is that you study the games you play and learn to vary your tactics a bit.  It will open your world up to any number of more modern games than Supreme Commander and make you a far more effective player.

Looking forward to playing the AoS Alpha!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 12, 2015 2:39:56 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting AoWFever,

My suggestion is that you study the games you play and learn to vary your tactics a bit. It will open your world up to any number of more modern games than Supreme Commander and make you a far more effective player.

I think people there aren't looking for "l2p n00b"-like advices, they're looking for a product that suit their needs. I'm ready to pay $100 or even $300 for a slow-paced RTS with strong turtling support, but there's just no offer to meet my demand, given that SCFA with mods crashes all the time on all rigs I have access to. I don't like fast RTS games or want to play them, and, more generally, can't stand any environments that put me under time pressure. There's a lot people like me - observations on sites that's not dedicated to PC gaming show that most people play RTS games completely offline just to avoid related stress. I've thought that AotS could be the new game with viable turtling, but with anti-SupCom stance of the developer team, confirmed absence of shields and long-range weapons, severe restrictions on defensive structures and public representative emphasizing his StarCraft achievements, it's definitely not the case.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 14, 2015 8:04:34 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Thanks Kane.  Good luck with all that.  

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 15, 2015 6:30:00 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting KaneTiberian,

 given that SCFA with mods crashes all the time on all rigs I have access to.

do you by any chance install it somewhere other than the C drive? :> what cpu and what cpu heatsink are we talking about? does prime95 even pass on these computers?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 15, 2015 8:12:10 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Kane, a recommendation to you for turtle games, check out Creeper World 3.  sells for a couple bucks on steam.  It is all turtle.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 15, 2015 10:20:48 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I fully agree on the Creeper World 3 recommendation.  It's one of my favorite games.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 15, 2015 3:01:39 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting KaneTiberian,

Quoting AoWFever,

My suggestion is that you study the games you play and learn to vary your tactics a bit. It will open your world up to any number of more modern games than Supreme Commander and make you a far more effective player.



I think people there aren't looking for "l2p n00b"-like advices, they're looking for a product that suit their needs. I'm ready to pay $100 or even $300 for a slow-paced RTS with strong turtling support, but there's just no offer to meet my demand, given that SCFA with mods crashes all the time on all rigs I have access to. I don't like fast RTS games or want to play them, and, more generally, can't stand any environments that put me under time pressure. There's a lot people like me - observations on sites that's not dedicated to PC gaming show that most people play RTS games completely offline just to avoid related stress. I've thought that AotS could be the new game with viable turtling, but with anti-SupCom stance of the developer team, confirmed absence of shields and long-range weapons, severe restrictions on defensive structures and public representative emphasizing his StarCraft achievements, it's definitely not the case.

 

I agree with you totally Kane, I would pay ALOT of $$ for a good turtle RTS game with a lot of depth.  One of my favorite features of SC was the observation mode.  Set up various factions and watch them duke it out.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 16, 2015 3:49:42 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting kreyson135,

check out Creeper World 3

Awesome game BTW, though it's more of a puzzle than RTS, at least as it gets closer to higher levels. Also it's kind of downside that CW3 is unsuitable for LAN party - multiplayer is impossible due to high gameplay asymmetry, and co-op is missing since puzzle-like levels were designed for singleplayer.

Quoting tatsujb,
do you by any chance install it somewhere other than the C drive? :> what cpu and what cpu heatsink are we talking about? does prime95 even pass on these computers?

All installations on C drive, no spaces in path, temperature, voltage and other hardware parameters within normal levels, rigs pass all tests with ease. Hardware on the rigs is entirely different, they have no components in common. Tried setting compatibility mode with Vista, XP SP2 & SP3, patching MySpeed in and out, running without Core Maximizer - nothing helps. Mods are: LEM 4.4, Sorian AI 2.1.1, TVg 4.86, Total Mayhem 1.20, BOGIS 5.0, BlackOps Balance & Unleashed 6.0, BlackOps Special Weapons (v4), BlackOps Alternate Reality (v3), BlackOps Naval Rebalance 1.2, BlackOps ACUs 3.2, Experimental Shield Generator 1.2. Game crashes after 40-45 minutes. Disabling separate mods allows it to last longer, up to 90 minutes, but in the end it still crashes. Also FAF version executable shows somewhat more resilience. Old Core 2 Quad and Core 2 Duo rigs were able to stand 2-3 hour matches to the very end on the exactly same SupCom version and mod layout. There are two different 0xc0000005 errors: in xactengine2_9.dll and ForgedAlliance.exe itself. I really have no more ideas how to fix it.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 16, 2015 4:35:21 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Games run out of addressable memory. Once you hit that 3GB 32bit limit, boom as soon as it tries to write outside that it will crash. Which is why 64bit coding is such a good idea as programs don't have to live within that limit.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 16, 2015 7:50:29 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting KaneTiberian,

TVg 4.86
these mods are not-intercompatible and the one I quoted, for example is compatible with no other.

 

you should let FAF handle your mods for assured inter-compatibility. you can play with that many mods on but at least have the right versions and such.

I'm not quite sure you understand how mods work. it's not a "it's gonna morph them together exactly like I imagine it in my head!" situation.
in fact, you put some mods in there that have so many of their different bits and pieces overwritten by other mods in your list that you don't see them in the game at all and it would be no different to play without.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 17, 2015 3:24:01 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting KD7BCH,

Games run out of addressable memory. Once you hit that 3GB 32bit limit, boom as soon as it tries to write outside that it will crash.

32-bit RAM space overflow was my guess as well, but it's not really the case - in the moment of crash it's usually from 2.2 to 2.8 GB.

Quoting tatsujb,

these mods are not-intercompatible and the one I quoted, for example is compatible with no other.

Probably some mods in the build are excessive and/or have slightly overlapping hooks. The gameplay-important part is interplay between BlackOps mods, TVg and Total Mayhem. The main reason for testing it in configuration mentioned above is that it's proven to be a working one - while some things in the gameplay were weird, exactly that layout of mods (down to versions) worked without a single crash on a previous generation PCs. Under assumption that hardware, OS and drivers cannot affect the results of ingame script execution by LUA interpreter as long as it stays single-threaded, crash source is localized to engine itself. After all, even removing every single mod don't help to cure that crash completely, while significantly extending lifetime. We don't use FAF, since our core layout of mods is still not available here, and it cannot handle more than one major mod anyway.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 17, 2015 3:49:40 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

KaneTiberium, it likely is an issue getting memory.  If a Win32 program was built Large Address aware, you might on a good day get 3 GBs of addressable space, but likely a good bit less than that due to fragmentation etc.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 18, 2015 2:29:50 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting KaneTiberian,


Quoting KD7BCH,

Games run out of addressable memory. Once you hit that 3GB 32bit limit, boom as soon as it tries to write outside that it will crash.



32-bit RAM space overflow was my guess as well, but it's not really the case - in the moment of crash it's usually from 2.2 to 2.8 GB.


Quoting tatsujb,

these mods are not-intercompatible and the one I quoted, for example is compatible with no other.



Probably some mods in the build are excessive and/or have slightly overlapping hooks. The gameplay-important part is interplay between BlackOps mods, TVg and Total Mayhem. The main reason for testing it in configuration mentioned above is that it's proven to be a working one - while some things in the gameplay were weird, exactly that layout of mods (down to versions) worked without a single crash on a previous generation PCs. Under assumption that hardware, OS and drivers cannot affect the results of ingame script execution by LUA interpreter as long as it stays single-threaded, crash source is localized to engine itself. After all, even removing every single mod don't help to cure that crash completely, while significantly extending lifetime. We don't use FAF, since our core layout of mods is still not available here, and it cannot handle more than one major mod anyway.

Thinking FAF can't handle more than one mod I think that is outdated thinking. Plus it would appear that your install can't handle itself either so?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108432  walnut2   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000782   Page Render Time: