Full Strategic Zoom NOW

By on September 11, 2015 4:00:56 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

minidump-he...

Join Date 07/2008
+3

Ok forget all these suck asses wooing the devs with "wow I love all the changes great ideas" blah blah blah.  I'm a founder and I'm glad of it.  I spent good American money on this game.  I love it already. 

 

But I will require full strategic zoom.  It's in every large scale RTS. The mini-map sucks.  You steal Sup Com's maps, now it's time to steal some moar ideas, mainly nukes, monkeylords and FULL STRATEGIC ZOOM.

 

You need to do this.. like now devs.  NOW.  YOU HEAR ME.  Like the black guys who said "givus us the free" in Amistad, I'm saying "givus us the ZOOM".

 

Thank you.

 

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tatsujb
September 11, 2015 4:05:42 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

In before locked.

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September 11, 2015 1:54:25 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums
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September 11, 2015 4:50:03 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Nukes - yes!, i would love them too. Full strategic zoom? You will have but it's going to be unique/stylish. Check the old post with strategic zoom. You're gonna love the ideas with heat maps and more.

Quoting ,

 like now devs.  NOW.  YOU HEAR ME.  Like the black guys who said "givus us the free" in Amistad, I'm saying "givus us the ZOOM".
 

 

Don't...do that. The devs won't jump and say "YES! he's a founder! Go go go with strategic-copied-zoom from SupCom!"...because they won't. They want something similar but still unique. They want us to say "remember the amazing zoom from AOTS? That is what I want in the X game!". It can be done...just wait for it 

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September 11, 2015 8:25:16 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Zooming out to a map full of icons where people play the game as icons is not a viable commercial game strategy.  So now, we won't be doing that.

However, in next week's update, we will have the first pass at the situational map where the player hits the space bar and it brings up a map of the world with what is happening on it.  It will evolve over the next few months.

See the Sins of a Solar Empire strategic zoom concept to get an idea of what we'd be inclined to do here.

But we have no plans to allow players to zoom out and display every unit as a little icon. Sorry.

 

 

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September 11, 2015 8:40:22 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Zooming out to a map full of icons where people play the game as icons is not a viable commercial game strategy.  So now, we won't be doing that.

However, in next week's update, we will have the first pass at the situational map where the player hits the space bar and it brings up a map of the world with what is happening on it.  It will evolve over the next few months.

See the Sins of a Solar Empire strategic zoom concept to get an idea of what we'd be inclined to do here.

But we have no plans to allow players to zoom out and display every unit as a little icon. Sorry.

 

 

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September 11, 2015 8:44:44 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting tatsujb,



you know you're fooling noone right? this doesn't turn what he said into any kind of rule-transgression.

We have a misunderstanding. I misunderstood what he said in the sentence before "Thank you." And you misunderstood why I thought it would be locked. There's no trickery going on here, just misunderstandings. I need to L2read and you need to L2chill.

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September 11, 2015 8:50:43 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Zooming out to a map full of icons where people play the game as icons is not a viable commercial game strategy.  So now, we won't be doing that.

However, in next week's update, we will have the first pass at the situational map where the player hits the space bar and it brings up a map of the world with what is happening on it.  It will evolve over the next few months.

See the Sins of a Solar Empire strategic zoom concept to get an idea of what we'd be inclined to do here.

But we have no plans to allow players to zoom out and display every unit as a little icon. Sorry.

 

 

 

First bold: Huh?  Zooming out and refocusing on the point of the map is exactly what Sup Com does.  Why is this not viable?

Second bold:  I've been playing Sins since 2008.  There's full galaxy zoom, you can focus on any planet (and the units in the planet's GW) you want or need to to manage the empire.

 

There is no reason not to have full zoom.  How can you appreciate the scale and scope of the battle if you can't see it all? How can I monitor what an enemy is doing if I've defeated the fog of war with sensors or patrolling scouts and I have visual access to a sector of the map.  Makes no sense.  It's just tedious when you have to think fast to redirect a battle order or command on the opposite side of a map.  Also, the commands are tedious.  If I want a unit do a patrol, I should be able to do it as Sup Com would do it. Click patrol and easily create a patrolling area by widening waypoints circularly.  That's what patrol is.  Intsead, the units have to return to the point of origin to be redirected? 

Also, there's no assist command if you want an engineer to help another engineer.  I mean common dudes... if you're going to rip off a game... do it right.

 

*oh and tilt would be nice too.  I'd like to see a battle from ground level in 3d.  That would be sweet.

** double edit

If these suggestions are not intended for the game you envision, I beseech you to think of a "Sup Com" mode or mod that can easily be built in.  I've already read on the Sup Com FA forever forum... "no zoom, no buy."

 

The more you make it like Sup Com, you're instantly attracting the thousands that have played and loved Sup Com.  It just makes sense to sell games.

 

 

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September 11, 2015 9:24:18 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

You misunderstand. They are adding a full strategic view of the entire map. It's just not going to be a sea of icons for every unit.

For tilt, hold shift with the middle mouse button (or is it Alt?)

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September 11, 2015 9:28:58 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting eviator,

You misunderstand. They are adding a full strategic view of the entire map. It's just not going to be a sea of icons for every unit.

For tilt, hold shift with the middle mouse button (or is it Alt?)

 

Is there a list of key combo commands written down somewhere?   At least throw that in the next update.  

 

Look if I can't see the enemy If I've broken the fog of war, what's the point?  At least I'll be able to zoom on my units and control areas easier I guess.

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September 11, 2015 9:36:26 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

There is the "Ashes Quickstart Guide for Founders" sticky in the founders forum that I think covers some of this. Not sure if it is still accurate. Also, this is alpha, we can't really expect them to be devoting too much time to documentation. Part of the feedback we can provide is our assessment of how intuitive the UI is without needing help.

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September 11, 2015 9:48:03 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting eviator,

Part of the feedback we can provide is our assessment of how intuitive the UI is without needing help.
that's a very good point. One I've brought up myself before already. 

And if I must repeat myself : the commands and UI is not intuitive so far.

why would you bind PAN camera and issue all orders to units to the same button (right mouse). the orders going through rely on you holding your mouse very still so they aren't mistook for PAN. (which they are 90% of the time for me as I have an ultra-sensitive laser mouse)

so I'm guessing this is on the to-do list since awhile back already.

Otherwise I don't see who this game can be sold to.

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September 12, 2015 1:24:12 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Zooming out to a map full of icons where people play the game as icons is not a viable commercial game strategy.  So now, we won't be doing that.

However, in next week's update, we will have the first pass at the situational map where the player hits the space bar and it brings up a map of the world with what is happening on it.  It will evolve over the next few months.

See the Sins of a Solar Empire strategic zoom concept to get an idea of what we'd be inclined to do here.

But we have no plans to allow players to zoom out and display every unit as a little icon. Sorry.

 

 

Thank You!

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September 12, 2015 4:30:42 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting ASADDF,


Quoting Frogboy,

Zooming out to a map full of icons where people play the game as icons is not a viable commercial game strategy.  So now, we won't be doing that.

However, in next week's update, we will have the first pass at the situational map where the player hits the space bar and it brings up a map of the world with what is happening on it.  It will evolve over the next few months.

See the Sins of a Solar Empire strategic zoom concept to get an idea of what we'd be inclined to do here.

But we have no plans to allow players to zoom out and display every unit as a little icon. Sorry.

 

 



Thank You!

 

You come into my thread, you quote a post and you say "Thank you".  Why thank you?  Thank you for what?  At least explain yourself.

 

Why is this such a wonderful approach to not be able to see the units you're trying to attack in detail?

Why should I not be allowed to zoom in on what ever point of the map I want without skipping around a mini-map?

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September 12, 2015 7:05:21 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

First post here, hi all!

That heading really grabbed my attention.

 

Quoting Frogboy,

Zooming out to a map full of icons where people play the game as icons is not a viable commercial game strategy.

I think that's ok.

 

But not allowing the player at all to seamlessly fully zoom out his view with the mousewheel to a map without icons - that's a different thing.

I definitely want to fully zoom out that way to ...

1. get a good overview and enjoy the whole playing field from above (without icons) - I want to watch the whole war

2. give orders while fully zoomed out to a unit / group of units that I have selected previously while zoomed in

3. point my mouse at some point on the fully zoomed out view and then just scroll the mousewheel to zoom in on that point (much more relaxing and enjoyable than by clicking on a map to change the viewpoint)

4. avoid the feeling of the "field of view - prison" that's present right now

 

In short, I think I can live very well without the ablity to zoom out to a map full of icons. But I don't think I can live without the ability to seamlessly fully zoom out with my mousewheel at all - especially in a game that is maybe going to have bigger maps, more units and less micro than all comparable rts games.

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September 12, 2015 7:07:45 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

yeah adding spacebar means you won't be able to play the game at all with just the mouse. And this is reputably the type of game you can play while eating pizza. 

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September 12, 2015 9:57:01 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I already play the game while eating pizza.

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September 12, 2015 10:34:28 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

I already play the game while eating pizza.
but we're about to introduce the obligation to use a second peripheral at all times which nullifies that possibility.

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September 12, 2015 10:39:39 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

just please make it be distance related AS WELL as keyboard-triggered. please! (we can satisfy everyone here)

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September 12, 2015 11:59:35 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Over the coming months, the situational view of the world will evolve based on player feedback of its use. 

Even in the current build, it should be clear why a Supreme Commander style strategic zoom wouldn't work.  The maps are so much larger that it just wouldn't work.

What we ultimately evolve it into and how we get to it remains to be seen.

The problem with posts like this is that it indicates a pre-bias towards a particular implementation out of a desire for this game to replace FA for them.  Ashes 1.0 won't satisfy FAF hard core fans because it is the result of many many years of refinement and nodding of a very particular game style.

Ashes is aiming to be its own strategy game that has elements of many games.  I never felt that Company of Heroes was lacking because I couldn't zoom out and control my groups.  Similarly, I still prefer Total Annihilation to Supreme Commander (all iterations) and it doesn't have a zoom out to the full map.

Whatever solution we come up with, it'll be based on the needs of this game and the fans of this game. A user insisting we have to make our game be like some other game only serve to ensure their input will be taken with a grain of salt.  If they won't give our ideas a chance to manifest, there's not a lot of inclination to listen to their feedback.

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September 12, 2015 12:24:45 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Relative to unit size, Ashes maps aren't any bigger than supcom maps. The only reason it is difficult to see from a strategic perspective is BECAUSE there are no unit icons. Even at current zoom levels, it is nigh on impossible to see what any of the units are, especially when so many of the units look so similar from a small distance. 

 

It really doesn't make any sense to me at all to not have unit icons. Especially if they can be toggled on and off so that if you don't want them, you don't have to have them.

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September 12, 2015 1:50:55 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I, for one, am intrigued by the "space bar" method, can't wait to see it next week. I already have my Logitech G13 ready to go with hotkeys, and I can actually see the space bar being faster. Zoom in to an area to keep an eye on a battle, then to get the map view hit one key, then to go back hit the key again (or let it go, depends upon implementation). Seems quicker. Plus if I need to, I can map a mouse button to space bar.

Also, eating pizza while gaming will make you fat. Trust me, I was 100 lbs overweight at one point.

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September 12, 2015 2:21:33 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

strategic zoom just dont  work.

Im 100% for full zoom love it.

But i dont now how some players like play a game like this ,only with icons ,you just need to wait and see will be bether options that will alow us enjoy the look.


But i dont denied that we need something to understand what it what!!!

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September 12, 2015 2:23:05 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Similarly, I still prefer Total Annihilation to Supreme Commander (all iterations) and it doesn't have a zoom out to the full map.

I also prefer Total Annihilation, as I have never been a fan of the "fully zoomed out looking just at icons" - type gameplay.

That said, I bought TA on the day it was released and ever since then I dreamed of the possibility to seamlessly fully zoom out. I don't want to have any icons as I like to zoom in for almost all of the actual gameplay, just the ablility to zoom out, take a look, and zoom in elsewhere.
It gives a special feeling of freedom and might be a great sight watching this huge war going on from a satellite like view (if the engine can handle it).

But I'm looking forward to trying your spacebar-implementation. Trying different things should be the purpose of an alpha and is fun.

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September 12, 2015 2:44:48 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

As long as the space bar snap zooms to the mouse pointer I am ok with it.

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September 12, 2015 2:55:30 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I've finally decided to try the game and, while it's reasonably fun and not even too click-intensive, my eyes now bleed from numerous attempts to find my army on that tiny minimap or completely data-blind main viewport. Grand scale RTS must have an appropriate info and navigation tools, and that's what Strategic Zoom made for. Don't know if the new spacebar overview can get the job done - TA: Escalation mod have similar feature, and while it definitely works, it can feel not smooth enough for a player who's not an RTS enthusiast.

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