Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

Push-Your-Luck Diplomacy

I kind of just want to explore an idea I have for diplomacy. Firstly, my agenda, is to increase immersion via diplomacy, while maintaining, that it is also a tactic to be used/exploited (exploited doesn't mean Broken, per-se).

The current system of trade is one thing. Its basic, its rudimentary and it doesn't have much character.

My idea adds the following layers/changes to make it more interesting.

1) Based on the race's personality traits, different techs become more or less valuable. For example, "aggressive" AIs attribute extra value to military techs. Xenophobic AIs add value to everything, science based AI are more willing to trade any of it, but focus more on the research enhancement techs, etc. etc.

This, as many others have pointed out, will make it harder to abuse one or two AI, as you will have to play a mini-game of "who to sell this to?"

2) We reduce the maximum value of each trade, by default, to about 500-750 credits worth of stuff. BUT you are allowed to do Three trades as part of a single conversation. HOWEVER, trading requires a DICE roll (essentially) a % chance of success/failure, that is increased/decreased by their relationship with you. Each subsequent trade decreases your chances of success.

SO a conversation with someone you are totally neutral with, the first trade, has a 50% chance of success (we can adjust the numbers, its just an example), the second trade, a 40% chance, and the third, a 30% chance. After that, You have to wait numerous turns, as you do currently. Not only is success not guaranteed, but failure, incurs a temporary diplomatic penalty. The first trade, if failed, incurs no penalty, the 2nd, a -1 for X turns, and the 3rd, a -2 for X turns.

This might even be enough, that we can remove the "you can't talk to me" timer, because if you foolishly keep trying to trade, you will basically "nag" the AI into HATING YOU.

I think this, would be really unique and exciting, people love the addiction of "push your luck" mechanics (whether they admit it or not lol) and it could actually get players interested in diplomacy techs and if we combined it with "missions" for the AI, similar to what was present in Sins of a Solar Empire, or the quests of Endless Legend, it gives you a reason to do things for the AI to gain favor, so you can THEN successfully exploit them in trade and gain advantage. The failure system will prevent it from easily being exploited for NO effort, like what you can do today.

Techs for example, could, instead of just increase relationship bonuses, increase the value per-trade you are allowed, or make certain types of trading less risky.

What do you think?

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I usually dislike dice-based interactions, but your suggestions would give the diplomatic system a little more depth and diversity.

I would only add that some techs should always be off the table, more so the worse your standing is. I read some players have a rule to trade only techs 2 levels or more below their latest discovery: something along this line may be implemented for the AIs as well, thus limiting the opportunity to exploit it

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peregrine23

Join Date 02/2007

+79

Interesting. I don't love RNG, and I imagine this would drive crazy that guy who was complaining because he had to save scrum to get good colonization event. Diplomacy is always one of the hardest things to do in strategy games as it really highlights how non-human the AI is. My first instinct is that adding randomness is not the way to make diplomacy feel like you are dealing with a real person, but it would certainly be an interesting thing to play with.

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I am one of those who mercilessly uses the ability to sell techs to minor races in order to bankrupt the minor races before I roflstomp them. In diplomacy's current in-game iteration, this ends up being really, really easy to do. I play with the AIs at "Gifted" currently. Are the AIs less generous in trades at higher difficulty levels? If not, then I agree with the sentiment that diplomacy could be more immersive/challenging. As of right now, the way the diplo system works ends up giving me a huge advantage. I'm not sure that the above solution, with RNG is the way to go. I would think a rework of the diplomacy system is needed though.

I would instead suggest that the one-per-planet diplomacy buildings not boost overall reputation as much. In fact, I'd suggest they give some sort of diplomatic "currency" per turn instead. Think of it as generating goodwill or political capital, and then expending it on certain diplomatic actions, like requesting an embargo or joining your alliance. I think there is still room for reputation-increasing buildings, but I think they should be limited to a "Diplomatic Capitol" sort of improvement and a few other one-per-player improvements. Otherwise on larger maps, a diplomatic victory is almost ridiculously easy so long as you can manage to get 20 planets with embassies on each one. Diplomatic victory shouldn't be so easy. This diplomatic "currency" system could tie in to a adjusted diplomatic victory conditions as well.

Just my $0.02

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Gauntlet03

Join Date 01/2004

+139

I've seen diplomacy as capital before in fallen enchantress and endless legend, I liked it, as it was more balanced, but it wasn't more immersive. That's my reason for the RNG, in real life, other people do the unexpected and sometimes just can't be bought. Also the penalty for failure here, requires you to wait and could lead to problems you didn't expect. This will allow us to remove the forced "timer" on speaking to Civs.

Also the 3 part conversation system gives a lot of interactions that can and should be customized to 'feel' like each race, which is how most games achieve their diplomacy flavor anyways, and something oddly lacking in GC3 at the moment.

It adds a system that you can't always predict, and can't rely on. Relationships are not predictable machines that give you what you want because you have X. That is the thought anyways. The point isn't this is THE system, but that we need a system that caters more to immersion and not always getting exactly what we want from a trade, as that becomes just another tactic to winning, and diplomacy should have some roleplay elements. Right now, there really isn't a way to FAIL diplomacy, just a choice you make to care or not care.

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