Zooming out to 100,000 feet

By on November 4, 2015 5:29:54 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001
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Zoomed out to the edge of the lower atmosphere (about 100,000 feet in the air)

Realistically, the game just isn't meant to be played this far zoomed out.  And this isn't even covering the full map and isn't the largest map we even support.

We will be doing a lot more to make the strategic situation map provide more information for players to make good strategic decisions.  

 

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November 4, 2015 5:50:17 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

Is it "we can technically allow you to zoom out this much but we are not going to let you do it as it does not fit our vision for the game", or "we can do this and will let you do this soon but it is as far as we are going to allow it, and don't expect full zoom out on the bigger maps"?

I think you are saying you won't be implementing it for the players but just want to clarify.

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November 4, 2015 6:05:37 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Looks great!  Personally, my desire to be able to zoom out so see the whole map is not for the sake of spending time playing at that level, but rather as a means of moving from one location to the next. Currently, I find the experience of moving around kind of jarring. Scrolling, double clicking on a control group, clicking on the mini map, or bringing up the strategic map with the space bar just doesn't feel very seamless, especially give the size of some of the maps. 

I know your looking into heat maps for unit representation, and I think that would work well at the zoom level posted above; however, ideally I'd love to see the zoom function extend all the way out to the entire map. Since any details at that altitude would be minutely small, perhaps as one zooms out to the map's full size it could morph into what we currently what we have as the strategic (space bar) map.

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November 4, 2015 6:25:58 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums


Realistically, the game just isn't meant to be played this far zoomed out.

 

why not??? 

 

when you say things like this you never ever give any arguments.

I'm puzzled by this.

 


re to make the strategic situation map provide more information

 

information is useless without control

 

and people back me up on this or I'm gonna be told again this is me just going solo in my wild ramblings.

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November 4, 2015 6:44:56 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

We dont have the intencion to play with full zoom, its just faster simple and easy to track all places at once.

 

We cant and its not usefull use the space bar, when we are fight on so many places  ,that can work to games like starcraft , LOL  or Dota here in epic and big maps battles just dont fit .

 

Make the test put to all this zoom and wait for the feedback.

 

The only way i see its like im play with same zoom has FA or PA.

 

 

 

 

And we can very easy understand with half zoom the units its ok 

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November 4, 2015 6:53:07 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Ticktoc,

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you are saying.

Is it "we can technically allow you to zoom out this much but we are not going to let you do it as it does not fit our vision for the game", or "we can do this and will let you do this soon but it is as far as we are going to allow it, and don't expect full zoom out on the bigger maps"?

I think you are saying you won't be implementing it for the players but just want to clarify.

The game would be unplayable like this.  The only way to make this usable would be to add in a whole new layer of information that would be displayed that would be practically a game project unto itself.

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November 4, 2015 6:54:41 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting TAG_Utter,

We dont have the intencion to play with full zoom, its just faster simple and easy to track all places at once.

 

We cant and its not usefull use the space bar, when we are fight on so many places  ,that can work to games like starcraft , LOL  or Dota here in epic and big maps battles just dont fit .

 

Make the test put to all this zoom and wait for the feedback.

 

The only way i see its like im play with same zoom has FA or PA.

 

 

 

Reduced 44%
Original 1280 x 720



 

And we can very easy understand with half zoom the units its ok 

Reduced 44%
Original 1280 x 720


 

But you can't really see anything that far out.  It would just be tiny bugs.

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November 4, 2015 6:58:24 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I was going to wait for clarification before saying anything but what the hell...

Please let us zoom out at least as far as in your picture. It still looks very playable to me. Forget about icons but give us the zoom. You wanted feedback from the players, here it is

Are you worried it will make even T3s look small and loose the feeling of scale you want? With huge maps that is going to happen anyway I'm afraid.

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November 4, 2015 6:58:27 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Fragboy i will talk about what i think .

 

I dont see the Zoom option to understand the units or the look its just to alowed me be fast enouth to go all places i want ,and for what i see lot players think the same.

 

But belive i also understant your worry but in this kind game belive its the way to go.

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November 4, 2015 7:05:13 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

The game would be unplayable like this.

 

I didn't see your first reply, sorry.

People want to see the lay of the land, the lay of their forces and give some movement commands without having to be constantly scrolling around.

Looking at the scale of that zoom out you could so all those things. BUT the majority of the game would still be played zoomed in with all the richness that offers. Without icons I don't think that which you seem to fear most will happen.

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November 4, 2015 8:55:03 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Quoting Ticktoc,

I was going to wait for clarification before saying anything but what the hell...

Please let us zoom out at least as far as in your picture. It still looks very playable to me. Forget about icons but give us the zoom. You wanted feedback from the players, here it is

Are you worried it will make even T3s look small and loose the feeling of scale you want? With huge maps that is going to happen anyway I'm afraid.

I'm more worried that doing so will open up a different can of worms.

For instance, while you might be cool with just being able to zoom out, what about the people who will insist on there being informational overlays? Or what about the people whose machines will slow to a crawl because it hasn't been optimized enough? Or the people who will want the units to move even faster?

What I'd probably be inclined to do, at least for now, is make it settable in the settings.ini and see what expert players like you guys think without having to deal with the blow back from the guys who already think the game is too slow.

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November 4, 2015 9:07:46 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

It would really help us to better understand your intentions, and help us understand what is within the realm of possibility given your roadmap. Right now on your screen there are no abstractions of any of the units or buildings aside from presumably the empire tree. In the strategic view we are able to see unit blobs and control groups. Is that generally the rules of the UI that we are dealing with? Or do you have plans to present some form of unit/building abstractions that provide additional information when zoomed out or on the strategic view?

Here is why I ask: if there will be no form of unit abstraction on the main screen (aside from the empire tree) and your screenshot is pretty much all we will be able to see at that zoom level, then that zoom level is useful for only 2 things:

a. telling units where to go over a long distance, which can already be done on the strategic view

b. getting a good overview of the terrain

If that's the case I would not conclude that that zoom level is really all that beneficial. That changes if there is some kind of unit abstraction at higher zoom out levels. So, what are your realistic intentions with regard to visual unit abstractions on the main map?

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November 4, 2015 9:12:40 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,


I'm more worried that doing so will open up a different can of worms.

For instance, while you might be cool with just being able to zoom out, what about the people who will insist on there being informational overlays? Or what about the people whose machines will slow to a crawl because it hasn't been optimized enough? Or the people who will want the units to move even faster?

What I'd probably be inclined to do, at least for now, is make it settable in the settings.ini and see what expert players like you guys think without having to deal with the blow back from the guys who already think the game is too slow.

 

Would that setting be negated in Multi-Player? Zooming would be a pretty big advantage in MP and not sure it would be fair if all players wren't on the same playing field simply because we read a forum post 5 months ago

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November 4, 2015 9:56:47 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting eviator,

It would really help us to better understand your intentions, and help us understand what is within the realm of possibility given your roadmap. Right now on your screen there are no abstractions of any of the units or buildings aside from presumably the empire tree. In the strategic view we are able to see unit blobs and control groups. Is that generally the rules of the UI that we are dealing with? Or do you have plans to present some form of unit/building abstractions that provide additional information when zoomed out or on the strategic view?

Here is why I ask: if there will be no form of unit abstraction on the main screen (aside from the empire tree) and your screenshot is pretty much all we will be able to see at that zoom level, then that zoom level is useful for only 2 things:

a. telling units where to go over a long distance, which can already be done on the strategic view

b. getting a good overview of the terrain

If that's the case I would not conclude that that zoom level is really all that beneficial. That changes if there is some kind of unit abstraction at higher zoom out levels. So, what are your realistic intentions with regard to visual unit abstractions on the main map?

other than hav g a heat map around units to make them pop more.p, here's no intent to abstract the main map. That's why I'm not sure what people are looking for out of zooming out.

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November 4, 2015 10:23:19 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Okay, that is helpful, thanks.

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November 4, 2015 11:49:15 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

What I'd probably be inclined to do, at least for now, is make it settable in the settings.ini and see what expert players like you guys think without having to deal with the blow back from the guys who already think the game is too slow.

 

That sounds like a great idea to me, assuming we'll be able to keep that zoom setting in multiplayer.

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November 5, 2015 12:42:27 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

i agree with other posts.. i personally dont zoom out to micro units in that manner..i only use it get to areas more faster just so convenient. other people have the same mentality just a quick way to navigate.

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November 5, 2015 2:01:59 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Thank you Frogboy for this awesome image. i do like a lot this zoom out image and you can do so many thing with it, you can add a lot of info

let me show you 2 small examples of how may it look if you add units heat signature.

 

first example

http://postimg.org/image/f1zhjhgpl/full/

 

in the first map you just have dots.
bigger dots are T3 then come T2 and the smallest ones are T1 units, the idea is that when you start a war the units who are fighting will start glowing, i couldn't add the glow to it because i got lazy. sorry.

while the second example is:

second Example

http://postimg.org/image/qsdf0v9i1/full/

 

in here we have some kind of heat signatures,, when you see the armies fighting each other then you see them glowing.

Those are just examples. there is no on screen information about the size of the units, just think about it, if you go ahead and add the unit info in the left side of the screen ala Sins, it will be interesting.

having all that i am sure you will forget about the unit speed.

its not about playing using this zoom, its about getting the info of the whole battlefield, when you see or want to do something in a specific location just go ahead and zoom back in and start moving your units or building.

 

EDIT:

I want to add a last image on how it may look when you bring your mouse on top of a heat signature armies battling or when you click on this army then you get a white color around what your looking for then the info will appear on the left side of the screen.

Third imaget with info

http://postimg.org/image/quxanpd5l/full/

 

Guys remember this is just my personal idea. i hope i will get some good comments from everyone.

 

EDIT 2: Sorry about the images not expanding, i have no idea why it never work for me, i am so frustrated by that.
I added a direct link to the image for now the best way is to open link in new Tab.

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November 5, 2015 3:20:35 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting eviator,

a. telling units where to go over a long distance, which can already be done on the strategic view

I disagree with this, that is far too imprecise a way of doing it.

 

I think that is great work ASADDF! I think those show great potential.

 

Thanks for all the replies Frogboy. I won't labour the point by going on but I am glad you are still thinking about things. Perhaps wait until you have LOD/better optimisation before bring it in.

(it is labour and optimise, not labor and optimize, I think your website spelling correction is broken )

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November 5, 2015 8:29:01 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

For instance, while you might be cool with just being able to zoom out, what about the people who will insist on there being informational overlays? Or what about the people whose machines will slow to a crawl because it hasn't been optimized enough? Or the people who will want the units to move even faster?

 

how about we let those fictional people speak for themselves. 

So far I've seen no such demand anywhere. as it stands most comprehend the compromise we'd be going for in this eventuality as I do and wouldn't ask for icons.

 

I don't understand why fictional voices weigh more to you than real ones.

Quoting Ticktoc,

I disagree with this, that is far too imprecise a way of doing it.
Thank you!! 

few people appreciate the difference it makes!

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November 5, 2015 10:56:10 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting rapha320,

i agree with other posts.. i personally dont zoom out to micro units in that manner..i only use it get to areas more faster just so convenient. other people have the same mentality just a quick way to navigate.

Same for me.  Just zoom out to move faster around the map.

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November 5, 2015 11:31:51 AM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

ASADDF, I like your ideas. Last one especially.

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November 5, 2015 2:43:38 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Good work by ASADDF. Thats how it should look like. One does not need to control units from that view, nor have exact info on particular units, its all about overview on whole battlefield and having rough idea of what is going on where on the map.

Those pics are pretty much akin to this one>

You dont get to control anything at this zoom level, nor can you see exact fleet composition at particular planet either (if yes, only cause of the empire tree)...imagina you could see this only when pressing space instead of zooming out with your mousewheel...i maintain opinion the latter way is more convenient...

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November 5, 2015 3:28:42 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

The only way to make this usable would be to add in a whole new layer of information that would be displayed that would be practically a game project unto itself.

I believe it's the right way to go - the overlay system displaying forces' positions on a main viewport with smooth zoom from entire map to local battle. The examples of how it can look is above in ASADDF's post (probably need some additional info on unit composition). It preserves the key ergonomic sequence of SupCom/SoaSE: zoom out, see what's happening, move mouse only a bit and then zoom in. Old-fashioned navigation sequences containing usage of additional panels like minimap or external map windows is less convenient due to missing visual clue between close-ups and large scale view - they force players to remember correspondence between places, events and army compositions; this can cause headache proportional to the size of the map. While current spacebar overview does some part of the job regarding quick navigation, direct visual link is still missing.

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November 5, 2015 3:33:11 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

This does look very interesting:

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