What I would like to see in the game.

By on November 8, 2015 3:52:33 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Madmaxneo

Join Date 11/2014
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I got AotS today and so far I am impressed. 

Here are a few things I would like to see in the game and that I think would make it even more epic.

1. Different win scenarios other than just collecting points. Ideas that come to mind are: Complete elimination, control all points on the map. and produce so many of whatever unit.

2. Map tracking: Have it so that we know which map we have beat the AI at and at what difficulty level. 

3. Achievements: Steam Achievements and in game achievements, like beat a map in less than 10 minutes or something similar. 

4. Have units gain rank thereby giving them slightly better abilities (maybe even have the player choose which abilities), One way to keep track of this is unit decals.

5. Damage effects: Meaning that units smoke and'or shoot sparks when they get badly damaged. 

6. Guard commands and retreat when faced with certain defeat command. Setting a rally point for the retreating units would be awesome. This could also be used to pull enemy units into a trap.....

7 A rally command. Where you could designate certain units to respond to quick key button and they all rally at a certain predetermined point.

More to come......

 

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November 8, 2015 4:23:30 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums


2. Map tracking: Have it so that we know which map we have beat the AI at and at what difficulty level. 

I love this idea!


4. Have units gain rank thereby giving them slightly better abilities (maybe even have the player choose which abilities), One way to keep track of this is unit decals. 

T3s are going to have upgrades on them at some point. For normal troops there is the more general upgrades unlocked in research.


5. Damage effects: Meaning that units smoke and'or shoot sparks when they get badly damaged. 

On T3s the models do actually look a little worse when damaged, but yeah the damaged states could probably be improved on I think.


6. Guard commands and retreat when faced with certain defeat command. Setting a rally point for the retreating units would be awesome. This could also be used to pull enemy units into a trap..... 

Yeah, Guard would be good and so would retreat. Because of the slowdown mechanic, when engaged in combat retreats are all but impossible at the moment. It's frustrating.

7 A rally command. Where you could designate certain units to respond to quick key button and they all rally at a certain predetermined point.

I like this too, so if the enemy get deep in your territory instead of clicking all around the scrambling for all your units you can hit one button and they all assemble at the point you have designated.

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November 8, 2015 9:57:53 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Ticktoc,


6. Guard commands and retreat when faced with certain defeat command. Setting a rally point for the retreating units would be awesome. This could also be used to pull enemy units into a trap.....

Yeah, Guard would be good and so would retreat. Because of the slowdown mechanic, when engaged in combat retreats are all but impossible at the moment. It's frustrating.

I can see this being exploited. and thus making the game become micro-focused.

 

there should just be a unified move command with reliable behavior. 

 

currently when you are trying to break off of an engagement (I say trying because you can't ) your units move nowhere near the speed they move at when simply moving between places. End even less to do with the speed units move at when forming a meta unit. 

there's no consistence anywhere. 

If we left that as-is and tried to band-aid it with attack and retreat commands we would only further entrench the problem of handing all of the advantages over to those who are in deep enough communion with the game to be able to predict what effect issuing certain orders at certain times will have to a certain degree while this will remain opaque to the rest of the playerbase.

also you cannot count on scale to drown this factor out. there are indeed some people that can do this at sufficient pace to be able to cover the entire map effectively with these massive amounts of micro actions.

 

So what kind of game are we driving for here ? heavily micro-oriented or heavily macro-oriented?

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November 8, 2015 10:26:11 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

The whole slow down thing is not seen in any similar RTS as far as I know. Even CoH which has a suppression mechanic allows the player to hit retreat and back out real fast. But that mechanic would be crazy in a game like this with its scale and unit numbers. I noticed a lot of the devs worked on Civ4 and 5 which have area of control (forget the proper term) for units just like many tbs games. I am guessing the influence is coming from them/that. It works in tbs but tbs and rts are totally different beasts.  

It would be great if the Devs could really go into the decision for the 25% speed for combat. I really hope it is still up in the air. I could see why one person compared it to gratuitous space battles. You literally cannot retreat, it's crazy.  

I hate sounding harsh but I really hope this gets looked at again.

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November 8, 2015 12:14:56 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I would like to see a hotkey to select all visible units.  This would be useful for both attack and retreat.

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November 8, 2015 12:35:01 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Retreat is an essential command when used in tactical situations. Historically retreat has helped commanders turn the tide of battle. Retreat does not have to be slow, and in fact some units may even move slightly faster, unless the retreating units are returning fire as they are retreating. It has kind of irritated me over the years that no RTS game really has this.

 

A hotkey to select all visible units is a great idea also as MnMShow mentioned above.

Which reminds me, is this game missing the standard "Select all same units across the board/onscreen" shortcut or am I just an idiot and missed the obvious? 

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November 8, 2015 12:48:20 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Madmaxneo,

Retreat is an essential command when used in tactical situations. 

yup

Quoting Madmaxneo,

Which reminds me, is this game missing the standard "Select all same units across the board/onscreen" shortcut or am I just an idiot and missed the obvious? 

Double clicking on a unit will select all of that type on the screen.

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November 8, 2015 12:50:24 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting tatsujb,

The whole slow down thing is not seen in any similar RTS as far as I know. Even CoH which has a suppression mechanic allows the player to hit retreat and back out real fast. But that mechanic would be crazy in a game like this with its scale and unit numbers. I noticed a lot of the devs worked on Civ4 and 5 which have area of control (forget the proper term) for units just like many tbs games. I am guessing the influence is coming from them/that. It works in tbs but tbs and rts are totally different beasts.  

It would be great if the Devs could really go into the decision for the 25% speed for combat. I really hope it is still up in the air. I could see why one person compared it to gratuitous space battles. You literally cannot retreat, it's crazy.  

I hate sounding harsh but I really hope this gets looked at again.
Yes @Tiktoc I second this!

 

The whole thing is just EXPLOIT GALORE here's an example :

RED sends an incursion :

 

BLUE Responds :

 

RED sends an un-metagrouped bunch of high-speed units at full speed ahead to meet with BLUE'S units while he reroutes his units the long way around BLUE's intercept path. BLUE go into combat speed :

BLUE is now embroiled in combat and in combat speed and doing this typical "dance of war" that you see in AOTS and which isn't under your control unless you micro heavily. Meanwhile RED pursues full speed ahead without a shot fired. (we're imagining he's well out of range) :

BLUE has now finished of the harass force but is now out of position and can no longer catch up with RED as he beelines for his base :

 

 

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November 8, 2015 1:07:05 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Madmaxneo,

Retreat is an essential command when used in tactical situations. Historically retreat has helped commanders turn the tide of battle. Retreat does not have to be slow, and in fact some units may even move slightly faster, unless the retreating units are returning fire as they are retreating. It has kind of irritated me over the years that no RTS game really has this.

I can think of a bunch of ways a high-APM player could find to exploit a "retreat command".  (to attack)

 

the only way to have fair and macro-focused gameplay is for units not to have different speeds according to combat or commands issued.

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November 8, 2015 1:11:26 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Ticktoc,


Which reminds me, is this game missing the standard "Select all same units across the board/onscreen" shortcut or am I just an idiot and missed the obvious? 

Double clicking on a unit will select all of that type on the screen.

 

Yeah I know that one and it doesn't always work like it should, besides it is not easy to double click aicraft. I was looking for a keyboard shortcut. In some games if you hit "E" it selects every unit of that type on screen and if you hit "E" twice rapidly then it selects all same units on the entire map.

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November 8, 2015 3:13:05 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Madmaxneo,

Yeah I know that one and it doesn't always work like it should, besides it is not easy to double click aicraft. I was looking for a keyboard shortcut.

Fair enough man, just trying to share something which is similar which you might not have known about. If I knew of a button I would have told you.

I agree, a button for the job would be useful the the reasons you give.

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November 8, 2015 4:05:26 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Ticktoc,

Fair enough man, just trying to share something which is similar which you might not have known about. If I knew of a button I would have told you.


I agree, a button for the job would be useful the the reasons you give.

It is all good. It is hard to tell the slightly experienced RTS gamers from the noobs. The double click function is one of the most common commands across just about all RTS games.

Having the ability to set key bindings would be awesome. They could program more commands into the system with the possibility to bind them to specific keys. I have a K95 keyboard and being able to use those 18 programmable keys would be awesome. Then again my G13 is technically easier to use than those keys, but I barely use that these days.

 

They mention in one of their blogs somewhere that this is not a rehash of your favorite RTS and they do not want suggestions to make it that way. But there are so many good ideas in other RTS games that would be awesome if implemented into this game.

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November 8, 2015 4:09:26 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting tatsujb,


Quoting tatsujb,

The whole slow down thing is not seen in any similar RTS as far as I know. Even CoH which has a suppression mechanic allows the player to hit retreat and back out real fast. But that mechanic would be crazy in a game like this with its scale and unit numbers. I noticed a lot of the devs worked on Civ4 and 5 which have area of control (forget the proper term) for units just like many tbs games. I am guessing the influence is coming from them/that. It works in tbs but tbs and rts are totally different beasts.  

It would be great if the Devs could really go into the decision for the 25% speed for combat. I really hope it is still up in the air. I could see why one person compared it to gratuitous space battles. You literally cannot retreat, it's crazy.  

I hate sounding harsh but I really hope this gets looked at again.

Yes @Tiktoc I second this!

 

The whole thing is just EXPLOIT GALORE here's an example :

Images removed for space sake. 

 

They really need a "spoiler" option to hide images and such on this forum....

 

That is a great reason why we need a good retreat command or a better chase AI or even a guard command so units will stay and guard a certain area.

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November 8, 2015 4:11:48 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting tatsujb,

I can think of a bunch of ways a high-APM player could find to exploit a "retreat command".  (to attack)


the only way to have fair and macro-focused gameplay is for units not to have different speeds according to combat or commands issued.

They could implement an option to include tactical commands or not. This would add another level of game play to what can be the most epic RTS ever made. 

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November 8, 2015 4:38:32 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

The question is how to make it an epic RTS  game. Most RTS replicate each other with different irritations

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November 8, 2015 5:43:12 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Jetkar,

The question is how to make it an epic RTS  game. Most RTS replicate each other with different irritations

AotS is headed in that direction with the scale of the battles going on. If they can mix that style of game play with some tactical commands and a few other things AotS would be an epic RTS. 

One of the things I have wished for since C&C Generals: Zero Hour was the idea of world spanning campaigns. Where you would have a few places to establish bases and build things up then have to send out battle groups to make more bases to eventually control the entire planet. You would have to take resources from each base to support the bases on the fringe but still maintain their defenses along with maintaining the area they control. I also liked the way Battle for Middle Earth did it where units could gain rank and continue to follow you throughout the game. 

Stuff like that would this game epic to me, what would make it epic to you?

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November 8, 2015 6:41:10 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Jetkar,

The question is how to make it an epic RTS  game. Most RTS replicate each other with different irritations

not to my knowledge they don't. 

the above sentence would be true if the words "each other" were replaced with "Starcraft".

In my experience after starcraft came out and became a hit. even red alert ceased being itself and strived to be starcraft.

of course it probably didn't realize it had inspired starcraft in the first place.

 

Now games inspiring each other and taking from each other isn't a bad thing to me. (At all. without this behavior nothing new can ever be created!)

where I take issue is they started a habit of half-blood-ing games by only ever taking from Starcraft and refusing to pick elsewhere in an almost fascist manner.

Even Starcraft started taking from itself (starcraft 2 and expansions). 

 

now AOTS so far doesn't have any truly new ideas but it does have my vote for not picking everything it picked in the same dish everyone else did.

question now is what are all the right ingredients to mix to get a tasteful recipe. 

 

combat-induced slowdown, I'm sure you all agree, is waaaaaaaaaaaay too bitter and sour. I suggest removing that, continuing to keep away from the bacon bowl as it's been revealed it causes cancer, and add some of that good'ol sugar. Not aspartame! the true one.

my suggestion of type of sugar is this : http://forums.ashesofthesingularity.com/473133/page/1/#3600616 

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November 8, 2015 6:51:17 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Madmaxneo,

what would make it epic to you?

being unconstrained completely, no constraints in battle time, no micro constraints (Logistics I'm looking at you), no constraints in unit mobility (small passes on maps I'm looking at you). playing with a massively interactive community that must cooperate to vanquish each other in very large groups for fun and then can group again how they want. the game being balanced and fun to play. that's obviously the most primordial. it's seems like it's easy and tossed aside so easily in favor of other factors but the reality is : so many people get it wrong and it makes and breaks an RTS game.

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November 8, 2015 7:46:27 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting tatsujb,


being unconstrained completely, no constraints in battle time, no micro constraints (Logistics I'm looking at you), no constraints in unit mobility (small passes on maps I'm looking at you). playing with a massively interactive community that must cooperate to vanquish each other in very large groups for fun and then can group again how they want. the game being balanced and fun to play. that's obviously the most primordial. it's seems like it's easy and tossed aside so easily in favor of other factors but the reality is : so many people get it wrong and it makes and breaks an RTS game.

I am not much of a multiplayer kind of person as I prefer single player games. In multiplayer to many people either get butt hurt about something or they tend to brag. I very much prefer the single player campaigns and skirmishes. It is more fun for me and if I loose I can learn how to play better by playing the same scenario. Also I like being able to quit in a flash if I need to or put the game on pause which happens more often than not. So the part about "playing with massively interactive community that must cooperate to vanquish each other in very large groups for fun" would't work for me.

A newer RTS game that has some elements of an epic RTS is Grey Goo. It is actually a pretty fun game with loads of maps and 3 very different factions. Each faction is very different in the way it builds and uses it's resources. There is even one faction whose home base is always mobile. Grey Goo has the best distinction between factions than any other RTS game I have played to date. If you haven't you should check it out and so should the devs for AOTS, in fact I hope they look at other games like Grey Goo, C&C (in particular Zero Hour), World in Conflict and a few of the other RTS games that are not in the list of games that inspired AOTS.

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November 8, 2015 7:48:51 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I also agree that combat slowdown has to go because there have been too many times where my forces get slaughtered by base defenses while they are crawling away.

Also, I think there are a couple of mechanics related to unit movement that could add a lot to the game. I'd like to see a "get in formation" button that would make units move to a location and form up in a logical sense (artillery in back, protect the dreadnaught, etc.). Also, there should be options for the type of formation you want to make. Sometimes you want a wider or narrower formation, or maybe convex/concave. Maybe make options to tune the formation for attack/defense. Any new units that join the metagroup would find a place in the formation. Additionally, there could be an option to break formation while maintaining the metagroup. Units in formation would move at the speed of the slowest unit in order to maintain formation and units not in formation would move as quickly as possible. It could also be possible to modify the shape of the formation in combat so that your units can continue facing the enemy and firing while moving around (I'm thinking I could make my metagroup more concave to flank an enemy or come together more if the enemy is about to break through my front line somewhere). Maybe there could be an option to make units move more quickly but have reduced armor (or slower but have increased armor). Obviously, this would be an ambitious system to code (well) but it would be really cool and if done right it would add a lot of strategy while reducing micro.

I think that the maps have too many narrow passages as well. It really limits the practical size of an army, especially when units don't move efficiently through constrictions. Obviously, narrow passages should exist but I'd also like to be able to have grand battles with huge front lines. There should be maps with few constrictions as well as maps with many constrictions.

Lastly, I'd like to be able to include engineers in a metagroup and have an option for them to automatically build resource collectors. I feel like micromanaging a fleet of engineers as I rapidly take over territories in early game doesn't add to the game mechanics and really penalized low APM players, since it's pretty obvious that I want to build more collectors as fast as I can. But I think it should still be necessary to dispatch engineers because there's some strategy in where/how many you send and the enemy can target your engineers to slow you down.

That's all for now! What do you guys think?

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November 8, 2015 10:45:06 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting ZappBug,

I also agree that combat slowdown has to go because there have been too many times where my forces get slaughtered by base defenses while they are crawling away.

Also, I think there are a couple of mechanics related to unit movement that could add a lot to the game. I'd like to see a "get in formation" button that would make units move to a location and form up in a logical sense (artillery in back, protect the dreadnaught, etc.). Also, there should be options for the type of formation you want to make. Sometimes you want a wider or narrower formation, or maybe convex/concave. Maybe make options to tune the formation for attack/defense. Any new units that join the metagroup would find a place in the formation. Additionally, there could be an option to break formation while maintaining the metagroup. Units in formation would move at the speed of the slowest unit in order to maintain formation and units not in formation would move as quickly as possible. It could also be possible to modify the shape of the formation in combat so that your units can continue facing the enemy and firing while moving around (I'm thinking I could make my metagroup more concave to flank an enemy or come together more if the enemy is about to break through my front line somewhere). Maybe there could be an option to make units move more quickly but have reduced armor (or slower but have increased armor). Obviously, this would be an ambitious system to code (well) but it would be really cool and if done right it would add a lot of strategy while reducing micro.

I think that the maps have too many narrow passages as well. It really limits the practical size of an army, especially when units don't move efficiently through constrictions. Obviously, narrow passages should exist but I'd also like to be able to have grand battles with huge front lines. There should be maps with few constrictions as well as maps with many constrictions.

Lastly, I'd like to be able to include engineers in a metagroup and have an option for them to automatically build resource collectors. I feel like micromanaging a fleet of engineers as I rapidly take over territories in early game doesn't add to the game mechanics and really penalized low APM players, since it's pretty obvious that I want to build more collectors as fast as I can. But I think it should still be necessary to dispatch engineers because there's some strategy in where/how many you send and the enemy can target your engineers to slow you down.

That's all for now! What do you guys think?

All great ideas, I am now wondering if any of the devs are listening. 

When I have a massive force heading to an area and the dreadnoughts are a primary part of the blitzkrieg it irritates me that I have to stop the rest of the force to await the dreadnoughts to catch up. 

I kind of liked the idea of engineers not being able to be selected when grouping a massive army.  But it would be nice if I could have the option to decide to group them or not, and then have them automatically build the extractors that are needed. 

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November 9, 2015 6:54:31 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Madmaxneo,

Also I like being able to quit in a flash if I need to or put the game on pause which happens more often than not.

well in this case AOTS currently supports pausing in multiplayer. *crosses fingers hoping they don't remove this* Resposibilizing tasks breed responsibility, conversely, spoiling your community rotten with over-protectivity breeds brats. (take FAF as opposed to LOL)

as for quitting : this is where AOTS has the opportunity to shine (I'm not saying this for you because you prefer singleplayer but it would be fatastic for the game to fit the criteria even for multiplayers) the idea of swappable players as was originally promised for PA back during the kickstarter campaign. 

Since it never got to see the light of day due to lack of funding it'd be great for AOTS to seize this opportunity and be the first to support it!

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November 9, 2015 11:13:07 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting tatsujb,

Quoting Madmaxneo,
..... (I'm not saying this for you because you prefer singleplayer but it would be fatastic for the game to fit the criteria even for multiplayers) the idea of swappable players as was originally promised for PA back during the kickstarter campaign. 
 
TBH multiplayer gamers hate when players quit through mid game for the rest of the team picking up the pieces if they seem to be loosing or the player rage quit over a dispute with team mate.
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November 9, 2015 11:48:56 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting tatsujb,

well in this case AOTS currently supports pausing in multiplayer. *crosses fingers hoping they don't remove this*

I agree that this is great. At some point they might have to add a limit to how long or how many times the game can be paused though as there are some people who might maliciously abuse it. I.e. Pause the game and then walk away. Not cool but a possibility nonetheless.

Alternatively a kick player option. We would need to know who paused the game though, something I hope we get to see regardless of the rules behind pausing.

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November 9, 2015 12:26:33 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Ticktoc,

Quoting tatsujb,

well in this case AOTS currently supports pausing in multiplayer. *crosses fingers hoping they don't remove this*



I agree that this is great. At some point they might have to add a limit to how long or how many times the game can be paused though as there are some people who might maliciously abuse it. I.e. Pause the game and then walk away. Not cool but a possibility nonetheless.

Alternatively a kick player option. We would need to know who paused the game though, something I hope we get to see regardless of the rules behind pausing.

IMHO I don't agree because I have seen first hand in game server management certain teams or group players would do this to certain innocent players who either cant play well or the one being bullied.

The Devs need to serious consider this b4 implementing and how it will be used. The Quitting function should not discriminate players in multiplayer option of the game

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November 9, 2015 12:31:31 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

When someone pauses the game in a multi player game it frustrates me to no matter the reason for it. I don't like it when I get interrupted when I am in the middle of doing something. I can believe that others feel this way to which is a reason for me to avoid multiplayer. It seems that I barely have moments where I am not interrupted enough here at home to enjoy a long term game....lol.

 

Regardless I discovered last night that the dreadnoughts can build their own units, and apparently they follow them at the dreadnoughts speed. This changes my opinion on this, it is a great idea!... plus they can build medic units that heal the whole formation.....

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