0.63 VIDEO - Units failing to respond

By on November 12, 2015 1:26:53 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

eviator

Join Date 08/2014
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For the entire length of this video I tried to get this battle group to attack and capture the resource node. The units are very unresponsive, and some of the shuffling is also wonky. Also, what is the AI of the medics? It seems that, while in battle, the medics just hang back. Is that intended?

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November 12, 2015 2:51:55 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

This is known issue from past that on occasions the units don't move where you want them to go. 

I would redirect them close by  then you will see them move.

With regards to medic with this patch they are meant to hang back.

 

 

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November 12, 2015 4:14:09 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Yes, I have noted this behavior since the first founder's release. The devs have not confirmed it in the forums, and there isn't much public video evidence, so I wanted to see if we could rectify both of those.

We can talk about the UI zoom level and unit combat speed and whatever else, but lack of unit responsiveness will really hurt this game above all other issues because it feels buggy. And if the game has this buggy feel at release, it will be difficult to recover from that.

RE: medics, okay thanks.

 

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November 12, 2015 4:35:15 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting eviator,

Yes, I have noted this behavior since the first founder's release. The devs have not confirmed it in the forums, and there isn't much public video evidence, so I wanted to see if we could rectify both of those.

 

 

Probably is on the Devs list to do list. There again remember this is not a final release game so will not be perfect lol

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November 12, 2015 4:39:09 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Jetkar,

Probably is on the Devs list to do list. There again remember this is not a final release game so will not be perfect lol

Totally agree. I'm a patient man. That is, as long as I know that eventually the bad stuff will end. Pulling from another game (same publisher, different devs) the GalCivIII devs thought 1-turn overflow was working in Beta 3, despite outcries on the forums and live streams. They finally acknowledged it after months and fixed it in beta 5. Those were a frustrating few months. Had there not been that outrcry, who knows how long it would have taken them to notice.

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November 12, 2015 4:45:38 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

One more thing. If you have a group selected and right click a relay/turinium node that you already control, a blue line initially shows up but the units do not move. Please fix that. Make the units move to that relay and defend it.

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November 12, 2015 4:46:33 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Well we have to keep badgering them. They will probably read this post !! lol

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November 12, 2015 4:51:13 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting eviator,

One more thing. If you have a group selected and right click a relay/turinium node that you already control, a blue line initially shows up but the units do not move. Please fix that. Make the units move to that relay and defend it.

 

I agree or provide us with Guard command so units can guard the node if attacked or being taken over

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November 12, 2015 4:53:44 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

 

I think there is a fundamental misunderstagnding of what a Meta unit is.  Once you turned those units into a Meta unit they act as a single unit. That means, the army, as a whole, is a single large unit.

If you want the units to just swarm a position individually, don't use Meta units.  

Now, that said, I think one thing we can do is give the Brute a longer "leash" (the Zeus has a long leash).  So that they are more willing to get out in front of the  core of the unit.


Much of the meta here is designed to keep the core of the unit safe (i.e. the brute sare protecting those artemsis's while your zeus's are up doing what you asked for).

 

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November 12, 2015 4:56:00 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Reduced 36%
Original 1552 x 1057



 

I think there is a fundamental misunderstagnding of what a Meta unit is.  Once you turned those units into a Meta unit they act as a single unit. That means, the army, as a whole, is a single large unit.

If you want the units to just swarm a position individually, don't use Meta units.  

 

 

Sorry to sound stupid please would you clarify

 

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November 12, 2015 4:57:54 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

just edited my response with mroe info.

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November 12, 2015 5:01:10 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Thanks for the clarification

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November 12, 2015 5:03:45 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=AE73D69FD38970E0!114881&authkey=!ACiM9T6YKJcG_Cg&ithint=file%2ccsv

 

Try replacing the file in your Ashes installation with this and see how you like it.

 

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November 12, 2015 5:05:51 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Thanks I will check it out

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November 12, 2015 5:06:25 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

I think there is a fundamental misunderstagnding of what a Meta unit is.  Once you turned those units into a Meta unit they act as a single unit. That means, the army, as a whole, is a single large unit.

If you want the units to just swarm a position individually, don't use Meta units.  

So they sit back and let two artillery units fire and all the brutes and units with shorter range do nothing but get shot at. Surely the idea of a meta unit is that it is smart enough to use all the units within to the best of their abilities. This video is rather tame compared to some situations where your army will get shredded with almost zero return fire.

By your argument and the reality of the game you would have to run around your armies putting them in and out of a meta unit all the time. That is just not practical and surely defeats their purpose.

The front units need to engage while the longer ranged ones hang back. At the moment they often just all hang back.

How about atleast:

Defensive mode: hang back, good for meta unit of mostly arty with a few short range units to intercept aggressors.

Aggressive: Everyone gets close enough to do damage to target. 

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November 12, 2015 5:10:59 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

If I understand this correctly each unit has a role. You have frontline units designed to be in front . Midline unit  designed to be in middle ie artillery and rear guard  is the medics. That's the meta unit

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November 12, 2015 5:11:22 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Now, that said, I think one thing we can do is give the Brute a longer "leash" (the Zeus has a long leash).  So that they are more willing to get out in front of the  core of the unit.


Much of the meta here is designed to keep the core of the unit safe (i.e. the brute sare protecting those artemsis's while your zeus's are up doing what you asked for).

Okay, I wrote my replay before your edit came up. The "leash" is basically what I meant when I said, "the front units need to engage while the longer ranged ones hang back. "

The problem with having brutes hang back when you just have a few Zeus like in that video is that they could be swinging the tide of battle instead of just idling about. If something gets through the Zeus' then the tide of battle has probably already turned and the brutes will be too late to make a difference.

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November 12, 2015 5:11:57 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Ticktoc,


So they sit back and let two artillery units fire and all the brutes and units with shorter range do nothing but get shot at. Surely the idea of a meta unit is that it is smart enough to use all the units within to the best of their abilities.


Thanks for saying it so I didn't have to. I understand that the AI decided this was what the group should be doing. But as a player commanding the group, 95% of the units just sitting there is dereliction of duty. Sometimes overwhelming force is the right action. Not sure how you'd code that into the AI. That's a tough job. I'll definitely give your file a shot.

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November 12, 2015 5:16:29 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

My recommendation would be top modify the file I sent and see what behavior you like.

I think this is a perfect topic for us to team up on.

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November 12, 2015 5:30:51 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

My recommendation would be top modify the file I sent and see what behavior you like.

I think this is a perfect topic for us to team up on.

 

 

Out of curiosity If we use this code and amend it would that give us leverage playing against other players and would be classed as "cheaters"

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November 12, 2015 7:40:32 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Ticktoc,

How about atleast:

Defensive mode: hang back, good for meta unit of mostly arty with a few short range units to intercept aggressors.

Aggressive: Everyone gets close enough to do damage to target. 

I really like the idea of selectable defensive/offensive formations/postures.  I do not think a full formation control system like in Total War would work in this game (as COOL as that would be lol), but a button for each meta group to set them on a defensive or offensive posture/formation would be pretty dope....

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November 12, 2015 9:07:53 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

@ Frogboy - That comment about trying out different meta unit placement and leashes was very interesting. If players could edit the meta unit structure and rules, it could open up a whole new strategy element in the game. More aggressive and loose formations, formations where Artemis stay in the front to fire missiles first but then the Zeus and Brutes rush ahead if enemies get too close, or formations where fighters give air cover but stay just a bit behind the main group to avoid any unnecessary exposure to AA fire. 

Would editing those variables be possible for modders with some technical skill? Or are those files too complex to be modded.

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November 12, 2015 10:04:40 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

If you're talking about unit behavior variations in-game, I would say that needs to be fluidic. Meaning, if I'm able to change unit type behavior and relationships I should be able to change it throughout the game. All that said, it's way beyond the level of control I am able to exert in-game. I'm just not good at micro-management to begin with. LOL I'm the kind of guy that shouldn't be a founder of this type of game for just that reason. I suck at the RTS genre. LOL But I do stand behind my suggestion in principle!

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November 12, 2015 10:09:25 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Now this is why early access is such a great concept.

Make sure you check out the file I posted. It controls how the meta units tend to work.

We also used your video as a stepping stone to making it so that T1 units will tend to bypass easy targets to go after the destination you set.

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November 13, 2015 5:33:42 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Assuming that the game is macro oriented, with large groups to manage, if we want to form groups with units of course, and that the gameplay stress seems to come from multi tasking and several large scuffles to handle at the same time :

Can we reasonably expect to see some engagement rules or formation stances implemented in the game for the groups management? we had great routines to achieve that in Sins of a solar empire. could they do the trick here again?

 

For example :

 

-Formations :

- Compact : The units stay in close formation around the dreadnought/each other. It could advantage the immediate firepower of the group (better concave), or the mutual cover and the Healing of units. Useful to hold terrain and enhance a static defensive behaviour, or at the opposite a strong attack on a particular point (tanking). It could trigger a defensive/offensive buff for the group for example, but at the cost of some movement speed. armor/rate of fire buff?

- Normal : The one we currently have : Homogeneous formation, no buff/malus, but a good capacity to move, turn or u-turn, a reasonable mutual cover and range of engagement. The default one.

- spaced : A spaced formation : It could advantage the movement speed (buff), the rearrangement of the lines and the reformation of the whole group, and maybe a bit the "engage at will" behaviour of the frontline units when they cover each other. And so the range at which they engage enemy units. The main purpose? Allow the group to move easily, as said maybe with a buff to the movement speed, and overall to avoid, or defend against the air bombings and the artillery strikes. In conjunction with the movement speed buff, maybe a bit of range of engagement, and a malus to the cooldowns/energy recharge rate?

 

- Engagement rules :

Quite classic here : It could be something close to what we had in Sins of a solar empire :

- Static/defensive : The units attack/retaliate, but they don't follow the attackers. They stay in place/in formation

- Normal : Like what we currently have : The units engage at their range, they can advance/stay back a bit from the whole group to ensure the mutual cover, but on a limited distance. They stay relatively close to the group, and the dreadnought position.

- Engage at will (gravity well ) : Well, like the name suggests, the whole group/meta unit can move freely to engage.

 

See the general idea? Formations and engagement rules could also be merged for a better ergonomy. And the bonus tied to the kind of units/dreadnoughts contained in the group for example. Of course, a single button in the UI, or a keyboad shortcut to toggle between them is perfectly enough.

For now, we see that the group movements or engagement phases have rooms for improvement : Specially about responsivity of units, their agility when they regroup, reform a formation while moving, and how the whole group stops to engage enemies at maximum range. This is pre-beta for sure, and many routines are going to be improved and calibrated. Something to enhance units agility when they U-turn, and some work to the pathfinding when they regroup and reform formations, when given a move order, seems to be an important point. (deactivate collisions for units of the same group to solve pathfinding issues, allow a quicker reformation and group responsivity?)

Those are just some humble suggestions of course, but these formations and stances could bring, if not a proper and complete "micromanagement" gameplay phase, at least enhancements regarding the depth of gameplay and the groups macro management tactics on the battlefield. in my opinion, it could undoubtedly serve the gameplay.

 

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November 13, 2015 7:39:11 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=AE73D69FD38970E0!114881&authkey=!ACiM9T6YKJcG_Cg&ithint=file%2ccsv

 Try replacing the file in your Ashes installation with this and see how you like it.

I sure as heck hope this wasn't a placebo change, because I am loving it! My battle groups feel much more responsive, perhaps daring is the right word. I'm seeing most of the beefy units (brutes and Zeus) stepping to the front aggressively going after the objectives. A few seem to be hanging back to guard the artillery units, which seems like a smart idea. I find myself trying to analyze how the group is behaving in various situations.

Once when retreating my squishier units were shielded off by brutes in rear left flank from which the fire was incoming. Medics were within range but out of firing range trying to keep the shieling units alive.

I had a stationary group that was mostly stationed outside of range of targets I saw on radar. One T2 artillery unit edged forward a little to poke at the radar targets, and it was surrounded by medics in case it started to receive damage. I would have liked to see how the group would respond if that artillery unit did start getting attacked. I'd wager actual dollars that it would have retreated inside the relative saftey of nearby beefy units.

Are the above scenarios flukes and I'm giving undo credit to the AI for random behaviors that seem intelligent? Or is it actually that clever and I can rely on that behavior  in the future, allowing me to focus on the overall war? I would love for the devs to reveal in detail how the battle group AI is expected to behave in several scenarios, and perhaps open up the tweakables and maybe even some logic for modding.

I recommend the above change linked by Frogboy be patched in...again assuming I wasn't fooled by placebo.

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