barless

Join Date 11/2015

Initial thoughts after my first few games

I have just now played through my first couple games. There is a lot to be excited about, but obvs a lot that needs work.
I was beaten by the AI in my first game in under 40 minutes. It took a while to realize that you really have to search out and control turinium plants. I really hope that the game isn't ultimately reduced to a struggle to build units faster than the next person, and then just lob a bunch of firepower at them, in order to control turinium nodes and reach critical mass. It feels like it's going to be really shallow, from a strategic point of view anyways, if that's really all this game will be. It then becomes a race to see how many clicks you can get in before your opponents. The second game I played, I was able to beat the beginner AI in about 30 minutes. I just raced around the map and took over the nodes in the first 20 minutes, met very little resistance, and then just sat back and watched the turinium tick its way up to 1500 for the last 10 minutes. When I sit down to play a strategy game, I kind of want my money’s worth from a timeframe POV. If I just want a quick 30-45 minute game experience, I’ll grab an FPS and click away until my heart is full.
Also, it would be much more interesting if you had to accumulate and use turinium for building dreadnaughts or other advanced or end-game units or features, instead of just gaining critical mass.

I have to disagree with the suggestion about not having research trees I have seen in some other posts. I love the idea of a meaningful and useful research tree. It adds complexity and requires actual planning. I don't see how you can have a game in the strategy genre without a tech tree. I also think it would be interesting to be able to build rapport with the "neutral" NPCs guarding power and turinium nodes, so when your enemy attacks them, they fight harder or smarter than if you did. I am not really sure how that would play out, since you ultimately have to kill them off to gain control of the node. Maybe you can implement another way to deal with the NPCs guarding the nodes. Maybe make them an openly hostile pirate or native coalition?

It would also be nice to see the bases themselves be of more importance. They are so insulated (it seems to me anyways) from direct attack that all you end up with is two armies lobbing lots of firepower at each other. If that is the only goal of the game, that’s fine, but again, I think that’s a bit shallow. Being able to throw off a logistics chain or destroy some factories to inhibit the building of more units seems like something that should be a staple of any good RTS. However, I have a fondness for all things C&C, so maybe that’s why I am thinking about this game in this particular way. Maybe my thoughts will change as I get more time in the game.
I feel the frigates are lacking in depth as well. They all are very similar in abilities. I’d like to see the units be specialized to the point that your choices in fleet composition make an actual difference. If the units are all doing close to the same thing, in the same way, then where’s the strategy?

I think other game modes would be nice. Something like a skirmish mode, where again, you accumulate and use the turinium to actually build things or complete research, and not just capture turinium nodes, would be good fun. Capture the flag would be interesting. Think of the possibilities and tactical awareness as savvy that would be required, especially on a large map. Creating diversions, using the terrain to hide your advances, etc., would all be incredibly interesting.

Overall, I am very excited by the potential this game has, and I am happy to play the game in the state that it is in, and look forward to future refinements. Hats off to the devs so far in making an awesome new entry into the RTS genre, and taking advantage of modern hardware and programming to create a unique experience.

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eviator

Join Date 08/2014

+62

Turinium nodes des also grant the possessor a 10% Eco boost, so factor that in.

Air units, currently unused by the AI, offer the potential to strike strategic targets like factories And engineers.

I feel the frigates are lacking in depth as well. They all are very similar in abilities. I’d like to see the units be specialized to the point that your choices in fleet composition make an actual difference. If the units are all doing close to the same thing, in the same way, then where’s the strategy?

I've made this point many times, but it mainly falls on deaf ears. Apparently the only way they can differentiate units at this point is to tweak numbers like HP, range, fire rate, fire power, etc. Even though the units fire different kinds of weapons, they are almost interchangeable, which, as you said lacks depth. If you noticed this after just a few games, that is not good.

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I very much feel like you after my first games

Game seems to be only in one mode now, which I call gold rush, or node rush if you want. Basically is quick grab on nodes and metal and spam units. Who spams faster moves in and annihilates everything.

very little strategically to take advantage of terrain (the engine is beautiful I have to say, such a shame not used more!) and set external camp/outpost, control strategic passageways / gorges and what not.

gameplay could be made so much more depth with the tech available. To sum up, it's beautiful but novelty factor wears off quickly and not enough in depth gameplay is in sight.

i hope they are still in time to correct their trajectory but it seems to me this is going to be a bit throwaway if it stays as is game modes and mechanics wise.

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Alright, i think we can all agree that we want more strategical decisions in the game.

The Problem right now is, if i understood correct, what we have right now on 1 smaller map, is supposed to be like 1/6 of the ultimate map size, so we have 6 huge armies etc. - I am not sure how this will effect gameplay, but we have to ask: Why does strategy exist?

In games like SC2 or C n C, the strategic factor mostly came by limited ressources. You have to advance, and you have to try to be more efficient with your ressources than your opponent in Order to win.

In SupCom the limiting factor is not only the "Anti-time", since on bigger maps it took AGES until you finally reached your opponent, so small armies send early in the game will have no impact whatsoever when they meet a huge enemy army close to their base. Add this to the factor of a commander, something that you always need to cater.

Games like Total War get their strategic thinking via extreme stone/scissor/paper principle (much like SC2), and the ability to outflank for example opponents.

Games like CoH take their strategic thinking from cover all around the field, and stone/scissor/paper as well.

Ruse for example has a REALLY sick stone/scissor/paper as well.

Alright, so 2 main aspects are shown that are currently not in AOTS: 1) No clear stone/paper/scissor comes into play, the mass of an army is mostly everything that counts

2) No limiting factor. There is nothing to stop you from steamrolling your opponent once you get an advantage, or, to be more clear, the opponent simply has no way of stopping you. You just dont have to be careful with what you do right now.

The last thing i am still angry about is the missing army customization. If the dreadnoughts would be less "EXTREMELY POWERFULL TOYS" and more "Units that are actually not as strong, but give boni all surrounding units benefit from", like for example, extra speed, range, HP, armor, so the more/different dreadnoughts you add to an army, the stronger it becomes, but it will take a LOT of time to add like 3 dreadnoughts to an army.

Like this a stone/scissor/paper effect would be implemented, as well. Just think about a lot of small brutes with an extra speed dreadnought taking out artillery with a range dreadnought, or an HP and an Armor dreadnought blocking an important passage.

This stuff adds true Strategy.

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Quoting OoohShiny,

reply 3

"Units that are actually not as strong, but give boni all surrounding units benefit from", like for example, extra speed, range, HP, armor, so the more/different dreadnoughts you add to an army, the stronger it becomes, but it will take a LOT of time to add like 3 dreadnoughts to an army.

The cruisers and dreadnoughts do this already.

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Quoting TheRealWarpstorm,

reply 4

Quoting OoohShiny,

reply 3

The cruisers and dreadnoughts do this already.

Could we have a reply to our other gameplay concerns?

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Hear, hear! I'd like the devs to weigh in on this. I know I am not a "Founder", but still put my dollars towards this game in the hopes that we players actually have a say. Dreadnaughts need to be nerfed. They are way too powerful. I can take two siege dreads and 3 or 4 area dominance dreads and steamroll an entire map in less than 30 minutes. There needs to be more to the game than who can amass a bigger army and control more nodes the fastest. I will circle back to the frigates. If the only difference between them, as far as their abilities, and how I use them, is their HP and damage output, why bother with different types of units? I should be able to send heavily armored short range artillery frigs under a defending players long guns, and my rocket artillery can be used for other purposes. Stuff like that makes a big difference. I should be able to set retreat points, and areas of patrol if I want. I also would like the ability to direct units or armies I have assigned into defensive or offensive roles. If I leave a couple cruisers and some frigs, backed up by smarty systems around a turanium node, I should be able to tell them to either react defensively, or be aggressive towards enemy units. I said it before, but the terrain needs to be factored in. Long range artillery cruisers should be able to sit behind a hill or at the bottom of a ravine and shoot up and out, while blind, provided there's some sort of radar coverage on the target, which is where a small, heavily armed recon frig with little in the way of offensive weaponry, would be killer. You send in the recon frigs to get eyes on the target, and lob bombs from far away. You can argue that aircraft have that ability, but they are susceptible to AA fire, and it's not really the same thing. What a nifty layer of strategy and tactics to add in trying to keep those recon frigs alive, or whatever, mobile radar frigs, something like that. What about recon aircraft? Or is that where orbitals will come in to play?

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Quoting barless,

reply 6

Long range artillery cruisers should be able to sit behind a hill or at the bottom of a ravine and shoot up and out, while blind, provided there's some sort of radar coverage on the target, which is where a small, heavily armed recon frig with little in the way of offensive weaponry, would be killer. You send in the recon frigs to get eyes on the target, and lob bombs from far away.

Hermes do this role currently.

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Let's be honest though, the hermes is lightly armed and basically made of glass, so it's not suited to a role like that. You need a decent sized army to keep the Hermes safe, so it's not quite the same thing. There's a distinct difference between an exploration frig and a recon frig. Sandbox games like Eve get this concept right.

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If you spend on radar tech you don't need to get them or Pans very close to the front.

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Quoting barless,

reply 6

Hear, hear! [] There needs to be more to the game than who can amass a bigger army and control more nodes the fastest.

this x 1,000,000 x 42

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Kazzerigian

Join Date 05/2009

+11

... only x 42?

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The cruisers and dreadnoughts do this already.

Well, kinda sorta. I just think the roles need to be really narrow and specific, while right now, it is just a "nice bonus they give" - and what cruiser do you mean? we just have 4, and none of em give a bonus, right? Arti, drone, armored fighter, dreadnought sniper - i really dont see the bonus were talkin about

edit: My bad, i just checked the Auras and saw that they all give some kind of bonus. Even though that beats the purpose, since it is no big deal to add 1 or 2 of smaller units to an army to make them better at almost everything.

So my point still stands, highly specialized armies would have a higher strategic value

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Ticktoc

Join Date 03/2015

+85

Quoting barless,

reply 6

Dreadnaughts need to be nerfed. They are way too powerful.

I don't think the T3 units are too powerful. Infact I think they could be made more powerful but more expensive. A reasonable amount of normal T1 and T2 units can take down a poorly supported T3. If they were more powerful but more expensive they become rarer but more scary. Being more powerful would make the T2 anti-dreadnought unit more relevant too.

Stronger but rarer T3 would also allow them to upgrade and allow the player to get attached to them which can be nice.

I think at the very least in Alpha it is the time to experiment with making T3 more powerful and more expensive even if it turns out not so good.

Quoting barless,

reply 6

I can take two siege dreads and 3 or 4 area dominance dreads and steamroll an entire map in less than 30 minutes.

That sounds like you need to find better opponents more than anything else.

I agree with a fair amount of the other stuff you wrote. I think Frogboy once said the game will live or die on the UI and I think he is right. I would obviously include control options and ease of use to that too.

EDIT: I said, "A reasonable amount of normal T1 and T2 units can take down a poorly supported T3". Obviously this does depend on the upgrade levels of your units and the upgrade and experience level of the T3. Playing with the the balance of the experience level could also be another way of balancing things. Like initially they are not so tough but turn into beasta by level 10 (very hard to get to), that kind of thing.

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