Some balance changes needed.

By on March 18, 2016 9:37:10 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Waza88

Join Date 10/2015
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Substrate side, their T2 is way too strong compared to PHC T2s. Also their turrets are 10 times more effective.  Drone launcher range is maybe too high and it could use a small nerf on AoE.  Taking on a point with 2 drone launchers and 3 lighter turrets will result in 90%+ fatality rate even for large armies. 

PHC medics are ridiculous atm.  They are impossible to kill without nemesis in evenly matched small fight. In bigger fights 8-10 medics will quarantee a win even against vastly superior numbers unless there is ton of archers and they manage to nail those medics in time.  They could use some nerf on the healing speed, maybe make it less frequent or more frequent and less powerfull.  Could work too if it is constant but less effective.

Also medics should be higher priority for units.  I don't want to see units chasing them but if they are in range they should have higher priority for targeting.

 

EDIT: Please make a hotfix before the friday evening event

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March 18, 2016 10:24:39 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Good feedback. Thx!

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March 18, 2016 10:56:23 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Waza - agreed on medics. I'm not sure on your Substrate comments though. You haven't played them at all in ranked so it will be harder to have an equal sense of balance. Their T2 units should be stronger imo because PHC has both a ranged T2 designed to take them out as well as the amazing Sentinel turret. Equally important: unlike Substrate, as PHC you can start producing T2 units before having built a quantum relay so they are able to get out and push faster - especially if coupled with Incursion (which is still pretty broken on small maps). 

"Turrets are 10 times more effective" is misleading because the 2 factions' turrets are asymmetrical. There's no direct comparison so I guess it's a matter of metal costs to take it out while factoring in its immobility. As much as I love Drone Launchers I think you may be right in that they instantly vaporize T1s in a wide area. I think the range is fine but a small aoe nerf wouldn't be out of place.

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March 18, 2016 1:26:01 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I agree that PHC medics need balanced (I had a short post suggesting as much yesterday).  I experimented a little bit more with them last night and I'm even more confident of that now.  At one point I had a small squad of mostly T1 marching into an AI substrate base, and a turret was blasting away at one of my medics in a futile effort to do damage.

I'm not sure that less powerful healing is the answer, though.  The medics should remain relevant when grouped with T2/T3 units.  But if they were more fragile, then they could be easily countered.  IMO, medics should hang in the back where short-range units from the opponent's front line can't reach them, but longer-range units should be an effective counter.

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March 18, 2016 1:38:34 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Turrets in general are stupidly powerful.  They are relatively small investement when there is a chokepoint. Difference is that

PHC has no ability to lock down nodes the same way Substrate does.  5 turrets on substrate side, 3 rapid fire turrets which are dirt cheap and 2 drone launchers can deal with medium sized PHC armies easily with very little supporting army.

Sentinel turrets are effective but easily dealt with just by T1s or drone launcher. I think sentinel turret has way too much HP. Maybe reduce the cost by 25% but nerf the health to 2000 or 2500 hp.

PHC has the sentinel turret which is very powerfull versus T2 units but fires very slow and costs very much and excels only in quite large numbers. PHC smarty is useless versus anything.  I remember our game where you killed my army with 2 bomber squads while those 2 of my smartys were laying fire on them constantly.  You did not lose a single bomber.  Smartys are equally bad against land units but they make for decent meat shields in early game and can repel small harrasing armies if backed up with some units.

!!!!!!!!!! I also remember that game on Bis where you placed couple drone launchers on your side of the mountain and denied me my 2 power nodes almost completely.  There was nothing I could do about that and I was down in income big time compared to other players. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And about PHC producing T2 units without the quantum archive.  PHC needs a separate building for that, and still need quantum archive quite early to keep up with population cap.  Substrate has quite an advatage with needing only 1 factory to produce most of their units.

I agree that incursion is currently broken mechanic and I am puzzled to why it hasn't been already made time delayed.

 

I will play some games as substrate but that is the thing, I am PHC player, yet I had a lot of trouble beating painful AI for a while as PHC.  With substrate I could beat them with relative ease.

In my honest opinion I think that Substrate T2s are much more powerful compared to PHC T2s. Artemis is the exception, but you need to reach a critical mass for them to become effective. Substrate units have more health and their shields are constantly recharging. Now that we will see medics nerfed they will become even more powerful versus PHC.

 

AND please everyone voice their opinions. 

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March 18, 2016 3:54:54 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Incursion is not a broken mechanic. It's a very effective way to punish the player who is too greedy in their expansions.  It's one of my favorite tactics to use in MP when I see someone trying to rapidly conquer the map.

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March 18, 2016 4:27:38 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,

Incursion is not a broken mechanic. It's a very effective way to punish the player who is too greedy in their expansions.  It's one of my favorite tactics to use in MP when I see someone trying to rapidly conquer the map.

 

But you can beat any player who doesnt build orbital fabricator within first few minutes of the match. 

Send engineers cap regions, build fabricator and send the other engineer to enemy base.  Thats instant win.

E: if there is a proper counter to this I have yet seen it. I used this tactic on knife fight couple of times against substrate players when maulers were broken.

E2: If you wish I can demonstarte this ingame.

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March 18, 2016 6:46:37 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Waza88,


Quoting Frogboy,

Incursion is not a broken mechanic. It's a very effective way to punish the player who is too greedy in their expansions.  It's one of my favorite tactics to use in MP when I see someone trying to rapidly conquer the map.



 

But you can beat any player who doesnt build orbital fabricator within first few minutes of the match. 

Send engineers cap regions, build fabricator and send the other engineer to enemy base.  Thats instant win.

E: if there is a proper counter to this I have yet seen it. I used this tactic on knife fight couple of times against substrate players when maulers were broken.

E2: If you wish I can demonstarte this ingame.

 

No I agree that it's a problem.  But it's not that incursion is broken it is that there's no downside to doing it.

 

When I originally designed it, the units from incursion used up all yoru vailable logistics. So you couldn't build anything else until you then built a quantum relay.

Unfortunately, we have gotten very generous with logistics which has made incursion an unbeatable start.

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March 18, 2016 6:58:34 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting Frogboy,


Quoting Waza88,






Quoting Frogboy,



Incursion is not a broken mechanic. It's a very effective way to punish the player who is too greedy in their expansions.  It's one of my favorite tactics to use in MP when I see someone trying to rapidly conquer the map.



 

But you can beat any player who doesnt build orbital fabricator within first few minutes of the match. 

Send engineers cap regions, build fabricator and send the other engineer to enemy base.  Thats instant win.

E: if there is a proper counter to this I have yet seen it. I used this tactic on knife fight couple of times against substrate players when maulers were broken.

E2: If you wish I can demonstarte this ingame.



 

No I agree that it's a problem.  But it's not that incursion is broken it is that there's no downside to doing it.

 

When I originally designed it, the units from incursion used up all yoru vailable logistics. So you couldn't build anything else until you then built a quantum relay.

Unfortunately, we have gotten very generous with logistics which has made incursion an unbeatable start.

 

Well there is no way around the problem other than to change it..  It already has a punishment of supply capping you if used early but its not much if the game is basicly won at that point.

 

I don't think its broken as a thing but maybe it should have a 5 minute cooldown before it can be used.  I get that you will lose your beloved way of punishing greedy players but I really dont see any other way.  Even if that would max out supply cap it would still pretty much end the game since one can deny any expansion of the targeted player.

 

 

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March 18, 2016 7:36:59 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

I've changed it so that it now requires a Quantum Relay.

Also, medics can no longer heal each other.

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March 18, 2016 9:08:03 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Will Engineers/Constructors still heal each other or will this be changed also?

 

Adding the Quantum Relay as a pre-requisite to build the Orbital Fabricator will push the Repair and Drone bays to later in the game. It might be worth considering to change the Repair Bay pre-requisites to the Quantum Relay.

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March 19, 2016 2:07:59 AM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

The drone launchers and sentinel turrets do need a decrease in some form or another. If you have enough medics next to a turret, with it's current HP count, you are lucky if you manage to get it down to 2k HP. Cost wise it is also high for what it does and could use a reduction. 

The drone launcher needs a reduction in the amount of units it can hit at one time, or reduce the chances of it killing so many(if that is possible). It seems like in 1 or 2 bursts you can clear a generator guarded by the max amount of defenders, or opposing T1 units from the opposition. Seems like 6+ get destroyed right away which is huge in the early start of the game. I've most likely abused that aspect of the drone launchers considerably as a way to quell any enemy movements towards certain choke points, and to make a limited use of T1 units coupled with a launcher superior over a much larger opposing T1 force. 

 

There may be more that needs altering with the Substrate (T2 health reduction with a price reduction possibly) or something along those lines. I could probably add more input, but I'm so tired from the day I can barely think lol.

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March 19, 2016 12:09:12 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Can i say something?

 

What about not letting or disabling Engineers/Constructors to take regions

Only ground armed Units can take Regions, that may be a good idea.

What do you guys think?

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March 19, 2016 12:23:52 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

Quoting ASADDF,

at do you guys think?

 

I vote nei..   There are times when I use engineers to cap enemy points behind my armies.  It takes too long to cap a point to leave main army to do that.

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March 19, 2016 1:30:15 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting ASADDF,

Can i say something?

 

What about not letting or disabling Engineers/Constructors to take regions

Only ground armed Units can take Regions, that may be a good idea.

What do you guys think?

The increase in engineer build time from Nexus and increase in time to capture points from 15 sec to 25 sec has already slowed down the early game quite a bit. To not allow engineers to capture any points would slow it down even further and remove some flexibility and options for expanding from the game. I think I still prefer the previous style where you could capture 2 points easily from the start.

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March 19, 2016 3:13:46 PM from Ashes of the Singularity Forums Ashes of the Singularity Forums

A couple of engineers/constructors can capture a fully creeped out relay just by walking in and building a couple of smarties/annihilators, they heal each other so there isn't any problems with the creeps tickling their feet. This doesn't mean you should, it is slow, and sending in a real strike force to clear it out is much faster.

I do not see any issue with engineers/constructors being able to capture nodes. Taking this away would even further reduce the number of choices you have at the start.

 

The increased engineer build time not only slows down the early game a lot, but it has an impact on the exponential economy growth slowing down the mid and mid-late game as well. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it makes the game a lot easier. But competitive players might find the game more fun at faster game speeds.

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