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Gal Civ and MOO MiM issue, but I'm mostly happy with Gal Civ

Gal Civ and MOO MiM issue, but I'm mostly happy with Gal Civ


Hi Gals and Guys. New here, done a lot of reading, and I’m up to speed on much of this game. I’ve been a deep thinker of 4X space strategy games for a long time. I can quickly discern how a game’s strategy elements or missing elements will effect a game. I know, generally, what the true traditional 4X gamer thrives on and why.

I’m very happy to see a terrific MOO3 alternative here. I see already that I will play Gal Civ more than MOO3. MOO3 needs a major patch of a type that I don’t think they will go with, though I’ve made a significant effort in their forum to explain to them the why’s and wherefore’s of their need for it.


There will definitely be a migration of *thousands* coming from MOO3. Every game box has a Gal Civ ad, for one thing. How Gal Civ managed that, it was a superb move. And many persons besides myself, over at the MOO3 forum, keep talking about Gal Civ.

(MiM = MIcro management. MaM = Macro management.)

MOO3 lacks the ability to “specifically” pick your techs, a key MiM element, and you also can’t learn what techs are on specific enemy ship designs. For me, this breaks the game. That is the patch it needs to bring it all together. What they left out takes so very much out of the strategy of a game that is supposed to be rich in strategy. These key strategy elements were considered to be **integral** and irreplaceable pieces of the strategy scope and tradition. In that respect, MOO3 has not helped the evolution of the 4X space strategy genre, but hampered it. Though it does have some interesting and good innovations that will help it. I can’t understand why a company would want to remove *key* elements of 4X **strategy scope** that were so successful, and that helped so much to absorb a player into the game’s strategy scope. I’d bet the publisher constrained the developer.


You have my support here. Several reasons Why?

Regarding multi player (MP) and single player (SP):

SP is inherent to a good game design and could be said to be the core game. MP requires an enormous development beyond that core. And if a company decides their resources and focus ought to be on making a game with *great*, rich SP features, innovations, and design, then I’d rather have that kind of game than a half-baked MP game because the company’s resources were too spread out.

I believe Gal Civ SP will no doubt be much more absorbing then MOO3 SP.

At this point, I see only one real draw back with Gal Civ. There is no ship design, a key MiM element. Tactical combat would be nice too, but is secondary to the key need to have the strategy element of ship design. There is so much more additional strategy that is created into a game when it has ship design.

Above, I described the reasons why MOO3's not letting you pick techs, nor letting you discover techs onboard enemy ship designs, were serious draw backs. It removed so much the strategy scope. I consider these strategy elements absolutely integral to maintaining the 4X strategy scope and tradition. I consider ship design in the same light.

Yes, let the genre evolve into new strategy areas, but let’s keep the existing **key pieces** of the enjoyment frame and strategy scope in tact. I consider them **integral** and irreplaceable to the strategy scope and tradition of the genre.

Oh man, if you could only add ship design (at least) in the months to come. That would just make this game soooo.... superb. Then I would consider Gal Civ to be *more* than a significant contributor to the genre’s progressing strategy scope and tradition. Tactical combat would be nice, but I know it’s a lot of work.

I am very impressed with several of the new Gal Civ innovations. I believe some of these will also become considered to be **integral** and irreplaceable pieces to the strategy scope and tradition for the genre, and they will surely help the genre evolve into new areas and traditional scope. Nice going !!!!!!

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Reply #26 Top
Starflight 3 was being made a while ago... but I havn't heard anything about it for a LONG time...
Reply #27 Top
http://www.starflight3.net/
Reply #29 Top

Boogiebac: Thanks for the info related to my question.

Obliterator: Thanks for the info about ship strategies. Ship strategies should help with the ever important *long term enjoyment curve*.

JavaScout: Thanks *again* for the info about ship strategies. Again, this will help with the long term enjoyment curve.

LifeWish: What you have described about your ideas for in-game ship strategies/battle implementation is similar, in ways, to Stars Supernova Genesis.

Dearmad: Thanks anyway. I’ve understood that for a long time. But it doesn’t mean that games that focus on military conquest are “not terrific games” with huge amounts of strategic satisfaction.

But the key point I want to stress is that “your” point doesn’t mean that there isn’t some *possible* way to still make **manual** ship design a part of the game, in such a *manner* that it does not ruin the balance of the victory conditions. That’s true 1000,000% ! :p :D

Peter Sly: Yes, I was insulted too in the MOO3 forum for the reason you stated. If they only understood that in their attempt to insult us, they actually insulted themselves. You see, they revealed they don’t understand what MiM and MaM are all about, and how they relate and depend on each other.

Please read both of the following articles I wrote. Both articles IMHO contrast well, the meat of MiM and MaM. I hope they can get a clue now.

Ancient Warrior: Good to see you here. I quoted you in one of my following articles in the MOO3 forum. Based on your comment that I quoted, you sound like your scope of understanding the 4X genre is very good, IMHO.

I hope everyone here will read the two articles carefully and comment within their threads over in the MOO forum. That will help draw attention here. :D
That will also have the effect to “bump” them up several times so that they get more views.

The articles IMHO contrast well the meat of MiM and MaM.

One article is called: “SHORT REVIEWS: Moo3, Stars! Supernova Genesis, and Galactic Civilizations”
http://www.ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=3592235#post3592235

I gave MOO3 a less than positive review for detailed reasons within the article. So I hope they don’t delete it. I also say very good things about the other two games, and that’s the main reason I hope they don’t delete the article.

The other article is called: “Why the Current State of Moo3 and the Computer Gaming Industry?”
http://www.ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=272421

Reply #30 Top

Frogboy: Please don’t *croak* on us. LOL We need your support and improvement of this game. LOL Ribbet. And we want to let you know of our gratefulness once we play it.

I read this site for several hours the first day I came. I could see the whole concept – to make military conquest just one of several other *equally viable* alternatives to winning. And I was extremely impressed with the ideas that have gone in to making it work. My hat’s off to you and all who contributed. You have definitely broke some new ground which I perceive will add significant staying concepts and strategies to the evolution of the genre overall.

Nevertheless even then, I was still hopeful that ship design could still be added later, **in some manner** of implementation. For me and a very large chunk of the 4X fan base, ship strategy is a KEY element of strategy for 4X space games.

Thank you and your team for designing a very good strategy game. I do believe Gal Civ will become a *classic*!

That said, there is no need for anyone to dissuade me from my ideas below. Just think about them please. If I may now just comment on a few things.

I know that what I’m about to say would require some thought to devise a way to make it work. Yet I realize you already have ideas for game improvements that are going to take time. I know you have a time frame and resources to consider, so I’m really not suggesting you go out of bounds (but only if you did have time). But here are a basic premise or two to consider.

1- Having manual ship design in the game does not necessarily mean you have to,

a) graphically show the battle in any form at all, or

b) have a fancy super duper graphic engine to display them if you do show them.

Some of those games mentioned above handled ship battles in different ways.. In SSG and other games, battles can either be viewed, or just placed on auto and occur with quick calculations in the background. As Gal Civ is now, don’t battles happen in the background anyway? Guess I need to review some more.


2- Now that you have this terrific new implementation of having several other equally viable methods (strategies) to win the game, does not mean that,

a) adding manual ship design need *necessarily* change the balance back to a predominance of military conquest, or necessarily ruin the balance, nor

b) totally preclude having some form of manual ship design in the game.

Both ‘a’ and ‘b’ are true, that is, as long as ship design was added in such a *devised* manner to *not effect* the balance between the various winning methods. The assumption that it *must necessarily* create an imbalance is simply based on patterns from previous games, nevertheless it is an assumption. (I realize of course that a computer player AI would have to design computer player ships, based on intelligence they have of the human player, or by some other means.)

If the game later were to include manual ship design, a check box could also turn it all off totally, essentially, putting the game back to the form it is now with “no” ship design. Turning it off thus, would keep players happy who somehow think ship design is not a significant entertainer and key area, simply based on their personal preferences.

I believe that having some form of manual ship design will also get you more sales.

Just a few things to think about. Thank you very much again for the superb new game. I will play it often.