Modding & AI

from Stardock Forums
Aloha,

Ive been lurking around these forums for a couple weeks now, and I'll admit I'm extremely excited about what GalCiv is bringing to the gaming table. Been a gamer for over 20 years, and as I approach the dreaded 30's TBS has become an increasingly attractive genre for me. However, I have found 2 fundamental flaws that exist in most games of this type: 1) lack of multiple pathways to victory (most are simply wargames, which is fine unless you *claim* that there are mult pathways), 2) unchallenging AI. These are esp pertinent to me since I don't think I'll ever play a TBS multiplayer. The fact that GalCiv developers are *specifically* focusing on addressing these 2 issues brings tears of joy to my eyes. OK, enough gushing -- here are some questions:

1. RE: multiple pathways to victory. In Civ III (for example), you can win via non-military means (without ever going to war) at lower AI difficulty levels, but once you start getting up near emperor/deity, you absolutely need to make military conquest a central component of your strategy (particularly early-game)- even if you're going to eventually launch the shuttle. Will this be a problem in GalCiv? In other words, is there a link between the AI-intelligence levels and the feasibility of pursuing non-military victory conditions? Will cultural/political/scientific victories be near impossible at super-high AI difficulty?

2. RE: modding. I like to tweak/mod my games over time, but something I'm always concerned about is whether I'm simply making the game easier for myself by doing so. I mean, the AI wasn't programmed to deal with this new ship I suddenly introduced into the tech tree, so how's it going to know what to do with it? How will GalCiv address this issue? Example: I want to add a "unique unit" to each civ in the game (will this be possible in GalCiv?) -- will that totally screw up the AI routines, will they simply ignore the new ship, etc.? How will they know to use the ship for attack, defense, exploration, etc.? Will we will required/alllowed to write complementary AI script?

Thanks in advance for any answers. I appreciate that the problems inherent in these questions (particularly #2) are extremely difficult to address, but I'm curious. And one last comment: there are so many things that I think Stardock and Frogboy are doing *right* in the development of this product, I can only hope that other small game companies/independent developers follow suit (i'm assuming the big game companies will continue w/ "business as usual" -- i.e., unfinished game, crappy patch #1, $20 strategy guide to compensate for incomplete manual, crappy patch #2, overpriced expansion pack #1, etc., etc.). Thanks guys.
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Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
Hi there

1. Hera are a few of the multiple pathways

Win by reasearching all the technologies. that's a pretty long investment in time and the tech tree is different if you are good or evil.

Win by war destroying all other major races.

Win by having all the surviving major races become allied with you (glactic alliance)

Win by cultural conquest, Take control of the galaxy, (i think the % is changing but control x amount and you win the game)


2. Modding is possible, I think there will be mod tools in the bonus pack (you get when you sign on to galciv with a valid serial number) However i think some of the mods must be approved by stardock if you want your scores submitted to the metaverse.


I hope this helps, this is a great game and stardock will continue to listen to us. Hope to see you around the forum. By the way as you start playing and have questions, don't hesitate to ask them.

rich

~SDC~
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
My frustration with the big publishers is the same. SimCity 4, lacks any decent size premade cities and all their terrains included in the game are really boring. And the game lacks tile sets that were in SimCity 3's expansion pack. So obviously they are holding back big time. Not appreciated. And it is a little buggy too. My neighbor played it on my system, and for those reasons said he would wait until it hits the bargain bin. That is why the inclusion of Stategy First as a publisher for GalCiv peeked my interest in GalCiv. S.F. published not just patches but real gameplay improvements after the retail release of Disciples 2. The game was solid, they just improved it.

I think it has been said that the AI in GalCiv is hard coded. Besides any responces you get here be sure to check out DarkHelmet's reply in the "What is Moddable?" thread. His link to the following is very inticeing. Please excuse my spelling, I am recovering from a stroke.

http://www.jonaswills.com/image.php?id=3
Star Control: Origins
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
I'm gonna bump this up, because I didn't really get my questions answered ;)

But I'll rephrase for simplicity since I'm too darn longwinded sometimes:

1. Has anyone that's played the beta of GalCiv beat it on a high difficulty setting (Genius, for ex) without once going to war? How feasible are "pure" non-military victories at higher AI-intelligence levels?

2. How will the hard-coded AI handle modded content? New ships, techs, events, etc. Is the answer to this: we'll just have to wait and see?

Thx
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
Those are really GOOD questions, and I was going to bump it myself when I saw that they were not really answered.

As for question 2, all I know is how the CIV games handled it: In the text file that defined the unit, there were settings for whether it was used for transport, attack, defense, etc. Is that how it will work with GC too?

--Soulfire
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
sorry missread your posts. Midnight_louie was on my lap purring and then demanding tuna so here goes


is there a link between the AI-intelligence levels and the feasibility of pursuing non-military victory conditions? Will cultural/political/scientific victories be near impossible at super-high AI difficulty?

No they are not, hint try setting the a.is to good, but it's goint to take a while for you to get used to the ai's



I want to add a "unique unit" to each civ in the game (will this be possible in GalCiv?) -- will that totally screw up the AI routines, will they simply ignore the new ship, etc.? How will they know to use the ship for attack, defense, exploration, etc.? Will we will required/alllowed to write complementary AI script?

any mods done to the human are always available to every a.i. they will not screw up the a.i routines as long as they are done correectly.(if they research all the tech, can afford to build it etc.) The A.i's are hard coded, each has a different personality, so it's pretty hard right now to be able to do seperate a.i's . Also they are building mod tools for us to use. we're going to test them real soon and i'll let you know.



1. Has anyone that's played the beta of GalCiv beat it on a high difficulty setting (Genius, for ex) without once going to war? How feasible are "pure" non-military victories at higher AI-intelligence levels? Yes i have won on genius without going to war.(tesh win) Sometimes i induce the other races to go to war with the race i am the most worried about. then i'll go for alliances. You can definately win without going to war. but be warned when you aly with an a.i. he might go to war with a minor race and expect you to join them. failure to do so will break the alliance and result in the cooling of relations.

How will the hard-coded AI handle modded content? New ships, techs, events, etc. Is the answer to this: we'll just have to wait and see?

they access the same ships and tech that we have. some of what you want i think you'll have to wait and see

rich




~SDC~
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
Just to confirm louie's comments,

1) Need to seperate wars from military conquests. On higher intelligence levels you can win without military conquests, but winning without ever being involved in a war is rare. The AI is very intelligent and will use military tactics against you if it deems itself more powerful and you upset it. Upsetting it includes trying to make it's planets defect to you and allying with it's enemies! It is therefore likely that you will be involved in some skirmishes but these often don't include conquest.

2) Because the ship design is very straightforward the AI can quite easily handle any new ships you add. Ships don'tr add new tactics, they just have different values and costs. During beta I did try to fool the AI with new ships to see how it reacted. It built sensible ships at all times and used my new ship designs wisely.

I did manage combine new ships with useless new technologies and this fooled the AI (who would fail to research the technologies as it saw no value in them), but that's what the metaverse is for. Lets stardock see what you do and update the AI's to copy your tactics.

Paul.
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
Paul and Rich,

Thank you for your answers. Helps a lot. Can't wait to see how it all turns out!
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
have fun with the game :)
i seem to be trying new strategies every time....drengins are currently getting the bbq sauce ready for me, it' s either them or the yor wanting to se if i have any metal parts

rich

~SDC~