MarcusCardiff MarcusCardiff

The kidnapping of my fear

The kidnapping of my fear

That's my problem.
I'm not afraid, I will always be more worried by my governments attempts to frighten me than I will ever be scared by the "facts". Yes there are terrorists in our world. they have always existed, We have lived with the threats in the UK for decades without social collapse.

My point is, why be scared, why give in, Live your life. Fook them.

Also consider this, why is my government trying to make us scared?
This is easy. the more were scared the easier it is for anyone to take control.

Paranoia, apparently, exerts more control than any possible terrorist act.



231,591 views 437 replies
Reply #276 Top
Also it is very common that the quality of local products does not justify their price, so should we blidly reward local industry who will take advantage of our loyalty and give us crap.


Actually, this is exactly what I deal with at work. It's very trendy to purchase local, but the price doesn't justify what I can get. A good example of what seems to be a good idea, until you get into nuts & bolts.
Reply #277 Top

Once again, Dystopic made me think all day...

i do accept the premise that there's a propoganda machine built up especially in the U.S.


I can see your point about a propaganda machine, but question whether the machine was conciously built or just an outgrowth of our capitalistic culture. The eternal quest for market share does bang into our brains 24/7, but we have created a new generation that is relatively immune to it. You would be one of those, I think. As you said,

an aware person is reflexive.


Yes, the propaganda apparatus is there. But I bet we can use it for good as well as evil.

it isn't a nationalistic propoganda, it's a consumeristic one - but don't think for a second that means there isn't a political agenda behind the advertising propoganda.


Interesting concept, but I would suggest that the consumerist focus on the propaganda makes it hard to show a political bent. If what we are saying is that the advertisers create the propaganda (I'd agree), then to have a political slant would mean that the government is conciously bending the advertisers to their will. I don't see that to be true.

If the individual were no longer compelled to prove himself on the market, as a free economic subject, the disappearance of this freedom would be one of the greatest achievements of civilization."


The individual has never been compelled to prove himself on the market. Look at any large inner-city welfare population. No one is compelling them to work. As a matter of fact, providing these folks food and shelter is kind of a Marxist element of our current society.

The individual is free to make that choice. Some win, some lose. I don't see a way for everyone to win. Sadly, for someone to rise to the top someone seemingly must fail. We hope that a rising tide lifts all the boats, but that isn't always true.

My argument against a Marxist state has always been that if we are guaranteed what we need, where is the motivation to strive for more? Sure, there are no losers, but there are also no winners. A falling tide eventually strands all the boats on the rocks.

many people experience freedom as the choice between things with only minor differences, such as an SUV vs. a motorcycle (or Pepsi and Coke for a more obvious example). but that's still a limited freedom.


Every choice we make limits the choices we have. We never get to choose from an infinite spectrum. To say that this is a limited freedom might be expecting more than is attainable? Would you want to be free to do literally anything? And have others free to do it to you?

I would say that we are free to attain what we wish - providing we do what it takes to get it. If your desire to be a lifelong student is truly what you wish, you can. You will sacrifice other things based on that choice. If I choose to make a million dollars and work myself into an early grave I am free to do that, too. Personal freedom brings with it responsibility for those freedoms. I sometimes think that the wish for a utopian society is just a wish for freedom with no responsibility, and that's not the same.

ideas aren't urgent, and they don't need to be right.


They aren't urgent, but I think it is vital that our ideas be right, in the sense that they are defendable and able to be discussed and built upon with others. That's how society moves forward.

think Marxian communism is a good idea because it teaches us that we can enact our virtues through organized government.


Sorry. I value your thoughts and opinions but I completely disagree. Organized government is an oxymoron. Remember FEMA? Or look at our Iraq policy. This is what will provide for us?

I feel that saying that an organized government will take care of our needs is just one step away from clapping our hands for Tinkerbelle. What will take care of our needs, and has been proven historically, is free enterprise. But there are no guarantees in that.

personally, i'd say that's very much in line with the american idea of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.'


Ah, but it says "pursuit". We can all try for what we want. There are no guarantees.

There is a saying that everyone is a Democrat until they join the PTA. I have gotten more conservative as I have grown older and am raising a family. You probably will, too. But that doesn't mean I'm right. It just means I am crabby.

Younger people with different ideas got us out of Vietnam. Don't give up the fight, Dystopic. You just might change the world!





Reply #278 Top
I feel that saying that an organized government will take care of our needs is just one step away from clapping our hands for Tinkerbelle. What will take care of our needs, and has been proven historically, is free enterprise. But there are no guarantees in that.


Actually communism but with clever 'incentives' would work much better than capitalism.
Reply #279 Top
Actually communism but with clever 'incentives' would work much better than capitalism.


Ummm....wouldn't communism with incentives be capitalism? How would this work?
Reply #280 Top
Ummm....wouldn't communism with incentives be capitalism? How would this work?


In a sense yes! but you would have the ability to eliminate most of the pitfals of capitalism. For example you always hear big business saying basically in as many words - "to hell with society, the country or the world, to hell with everything, we have to do what is best for the shareholders". That is one big f--k up with capitalism we could all do without!
Reply #281 Top
big business saying basically in as many words - "to hell with society, the country or the world, to hell with everything, we have to do what is best for the shareholders".


I've been in big business for twenty years. I've never heard anyone say that.

The shareholders have the money, so yes, they get to drive the bus. But then, if they are making the decisions, isn't it the shareholders who are wrong, not just "business"?

I make difficult decisions every day. Some of them effect the lives of my employees. And sometimes I am forced to make decisions that seem uncaring to the people that feel the impact. It's a hard world. I try to do the best I can, but sometimes people get hurt, and sometimes I'm the one doing it. Every time I fire someone I know what I'm doing and how it feels[. I've been fired, myself. But the people I fire don't see that.

eliminate most of the pitfals of capitalism


What are these pitfalls? Is it just the fact that someone might to your job better than you and make more money than you?

I don't mean to offend, Mystik, but it seems to me that generally the people who complain about capitalism are the ones who can't compete. Or younger people who are starting at the bottom of the totem pole. If anyone thinks that they can outdo me, bring it on. I'm pretty damn good at what I do. Capitalism works for me.
Reply #282 Top
Do I believe that people who were rich decades ago would want to incorporate their power into their families hands forever? Of course,


Just look at Rupert Murdoch, he has been grooming his sons to take over the reigns of political manipulation for over a decade.

Conspiracy theory is a very badly abused term. It has been targeted on anyone who thinks there is too much power in too few hands. what a debunk, were all crackpots and irrational thinkers.

The people against the global elite don't believe in the "Illuminati", we don't believe that 911 was a set up, we don't even believe that ufo's exist, we just know when a lie is a lie, and sometimes, despite the slurs, we are right.

That doesn't make us all conspiracy nuts,

I would be naive if I didn't think there were lies in government and other powerful people. they do lie, cheat and manipulate, get used to it.

If you think that makes me a nut, then get your head out your ass and look for a change.


I don't mean to offend, Mystik, but it seems to me that generally the people who complain about capitalism are the ones who can't compete. Or younger people who are starting at the bottom of the totem pole. If anyone thinks that they can outdo me, bring it on. I'm pretty damn good at what I do. Capitalism works for me.


You seem to say, If you can't compete, tough, This is a very personal opinion driven by a total lack of understanding,. Some people can't compete, especially in third world economies that are deliberately hindered from developing in order to keep us supplied with the goods we desire at artificially low prices.

You might think differently if you were living in third world poverty, desperately wondering how to earn enough money to send your kids to school, so that they can "compete"
Reply #283 Top
I can see your point about a propaganda machine, but question whether the machine was conciously built or just an outgrowth of our capitalistic culture.


I can assure you (here's where you are going to want proof that I don't have ) that the 'machine' was consciously built. It 'started' innocently enough with it's roots in capitalism as a way to get the 'consumer' to part with 'her' (when this was first conceived it was aimed at women since they were the ones who 'ran the house' and therefore held the purchasing power in the home) money. Basically, at the time (WWII ish)
advertisers were trying to find a way to convince people to spend money they otherwise wouldn't, you know, the old "you deserve this" line. They had some success with this.
After WWII, the military/industrial complex began to look into this as a way to possibly control the enemy, or at least the enemy civilian population. They sent advisers and scientists to the big corporations to have a meeting of the minds to see what they could learn. The funny part was that we were also bringing 'captured' German scientists into the country to get them before the Russian's could. The research they brought with them interested our military very much because the Germans were very much involved in things such as mind control and propaganda techniques.
Once our military leaders realized that this was a viable 'technology' they invested heavily into research and implementing their methods. With the communist 'scare' during the McCarthy era, the government turned this 'tech' on us, the citizens, for who could our government trust at this point? I think it's kind of funny really... to protect 'us' they spy on 'us' and lie to 'us'. That is rich.
Now here we are, decades later and a whole ton of technology at our disposal. They can use subtle, TV style mind control or they can actually mess with a person's electrical impulses in their brain, allowing them to 'personalize' their target. Don't ever be fooled into thinking that these kinds of things are out there. Lots of money has gone into funding various 'exotic' projects deemed 'necessary for our defense' and these weapons/devices are quite real and functional. If our government begins to fear us (which it does anyway from time to time) it will not hesitate to use these weapons on us, the people they were developed to 'protect'.
Reply #284 Top
we just know when a lie is a lie,


Oh, Marcus....

You prove a lie is a lie. I just know there is an Easter bunny!

If you can't compete, tough, This is a very personal opinion driven by a total lack of understanding,. Some people can't compete,


Yup. That's what I said. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. If you can't compete, well, you can cut my grass.

especially in third world economies that are deliberately hindered from developing in order to keep us supplied with the goods we desire at artificially low prices.


We are deliberately hindering the third world? We are hindering India by outsourcing our jobs to them? We are hindering Somalia by giving them relief supplies and watching them steal them to sell them?

Much of the desperate poverty in the third world is a direct result of the corrupt governments in charge, not us.

And wait 10 years. Once these jobs that we have outsourced have stimulated the economies of other countries there will be more disposable income. And they will spend it on consumer goods. And you will complain that they are enslaving the people that produce them, I guess.

You might think differently if you were living in third world poverty, desperately wondering how to earn enough money to send your kids to school, so that they can "compete"


I would like to think that if I was living in third world poverty I would figure out a way to get here. Like my great-grandparents did.

If we are so evil and manipulative, why is everybody trying to get here? Nobody is building a raft to escape to Cuba...why is that?

I can assure you (here's where you are going to want proof that I don't have )


Drat! Stormbringer is on to my tactics!   

With the communist 'scare' during the McCarthy era, the government turned this 'tech' on us, the citizens, for who could our government trust at this point? I


You know, I wouldn't deny this. But look what it did to the public's trust in the government. "Shattered" is not too strong a word.

And as we raise the next generation in this media-fueled, mass-marketed world they learn and adapt. They don't trust anybody, and that's probably a good thing.

Don't ever be fooled into thinking that these kinds of things are out there.


Remember when they finally unveiled the steath planes? They had had them for ten years before they told us. You have to wonder what they have that we don't know about.

But worrying about mind-control machines and death ray guns is sort of like worrying about the bogeyman that will get you if your foot hangs over the edge of the bed. Are we creating our own fears? Are we kidnapping our own fears?

(Look! After 280 posts I got back to the original topic!)



Reply #285 Top
propaganda and manipulative control over over citizens have been used throughout history, it's just mass communication that allowed it to encompass everyone and everything.

I do agree, Hitler was one of the first ti see this potential.
Reply #286 Top
Don't ever be fooled into thinking that these kinds of things are out there.


Uh, I meant to say "aren't out there"...
Reply #287 Top
Uh, I meant to say "aren't out there"...


I thought so. It's hard to type when you are trying to formulate intelligent argument - I've had taht porbelm myslf.  
Reply #288 Top
I thought so. It's hard to type when you are trying to formulate intelligent argument - I've had taht porbelm myslf.



Who you callin' intelligent?

Reply #289 Top
Thus could be an example of Stormbringer's mind control theory - we are able to reach out and grok what he meant, not what he posted. Now I'm going to try to reach out to my bank to make them believe that I meant to pay my mortgage...  

If only we could use this power for evil, and not just good!   
Reply #290 Top
Thus could be an example of Stormbringer's mind control theory - we are able to reach out and grok what he meant, not what he posted. Now I'm going to try to reach out to my bank to make them believe that I meant to pay my mortgage...

If only we could use this power for evil, and not just good!


If overdrafts counted as shares i could tell my bank to go eat dirt.

But if only the Milgram experiment were half wrong, then maybe we would have minds of our own.

P.S. never rely on Wikipedia.
Reply #291 Top
Thus could be an example of Stormbringer's mind control theory


You know Oz, not that I would ever, ahem, stoop to those levels you prove a good point in what you said there. Our minds behave this way daily, filling in those 'gaps' to make things 'make sense'. Even though I typed the wrong word, your mind was already 'ahead of itself' in a sense, correcting my mistake (or was it? ).
This is one of the first levels of propaganda/mind control theory in action. Those who work in these fields take advantage of this base level action of our brains.
There Oz, you kind of provided yourself with your own 'proof'!
Reply #292 Top
There Oz, you kind of provided yourself with your own 'proof'!


Argh, I have played into the enemy's hands! Now I must slink back to my cave!

I hate it when you're right...    
Reply #293 Top
This is one of the first levels of propaganda/mind control theory in action. Those who work in these fields take advantage of this base level action of our brains.


Sounds fascinating, but surely for this to make a difference you need some sort of theory. on the stimulation of basic brain functions to manipulate people, are you suggesting Oz has a mind ray? or is he just shrewd?

those who work in what fields?
Where did you get this from?
I am interested, but sceptical.

Reply #294 Top
those who work in what fields?
Where did you get this from?
I am interested, but sceptical.


Ahhh, I can see how my 'vague' terms would entice curiosity (yet another 'mind control' experiment?). Seriously, I owe you guys that much and since I failed on getting proof for Oz a weekend or two ago (can't remember proof for what as we had so many 'discussions' but I'm sure someone will remind me, ahem). Being at work makes 'research' difficult.
To be brief though, some fields would be espionage (or don't we have spies anymore? ), college students at the more 'prestigious' schools well tied to the military/industrial complex (to be fair, most of these students have no idea what they are working on or more like what it will be used for, but there are a handful who are malicious... I'm sure we can think of a kid or two from high school who would fit this bill). Then there are the less 'sinister' fields such as the medical field. Doctors have made great advances with the brain, mainly in an effort to help those with paralysis. Now even though their work is purely innocent, those who fund these activities also have ties into the 'bigger picture'... here's where Oz can scream "conspiracy nut" once more!
Google the 'radio controlled chicken experiment'. I haven't myself but it should be there. Basically, some college kids 'wired' a chicken with electrodes placed to interfere with the brain signals and 'send' signals that the controller wanted, in essence taking control of the bird. It was quite fascinating to watch and the kids conducting the experiment thought it was 'awesome'. Imagine this technology in the 'wrong hands'. Oh, and yes, they did say that it would work the same way on a human, and I believe the reporter covering the event actually participated as the guinea pig so...
Reply #295 Top
Oh, almost forgot advertising/marketing. These guys try to find new ways to sway public opinion daily, and they pay quite a few 'think tanks' to do their research as well as having in house departments devoted to this.
Politicians!!! They constantly rely on their advisers, advisers who usually have some sort of degree in psychology.
Reply #296 Top
"conspiracy nut"
"conspiracy nut"
"conspiracy nut"
  

some college kids 'wired' a chicken with electrodes placed to interfere with the brain signals and 'send' signals


Well, sure. Chickens are dumb. You can chop their heads off and they still walk around. You can do the same things with severed frog legs, too. We are several orders of magnitude more complex than that.

A more interesting (read: disturbing) thought would be the work that is being done for spinal cord damage victims allowing them to control their environment thru brain waves. They can now move a cursor on a monitor just through brain waves, and if you can control a cursor you can do anything. I wonder where this could lead?

But I am going to Google the electric chicken. This I gotta see...





Reply #297 Top
Good morning once again, Oz,

you left many thoughtful comments, and for the moment i'm going to ignore them all. i thought i'd shift focus a little. i've talked a lot about my ideals and utopian fantasies; i thought you'd find it interesting to see a list of things i'd do if i were in charge.

separation of market and state: you know, the separation of church and state in the U.S. was originally envisioned as a means to keep big brother from messing with the church, but these days the relationship is reveresed. i have a couple ideas in mind with this.

the first and most important is campaign finance reform. business influences elections far too much via its ability to finance the campaigns of certain individuals. i'd change it so that if a business or individual wanted to fund the election process, they make a tax-deductable contribution to a central fund, which is then divided equally among any eligable parties (in the event a third party ever received enough of the popular vote to qualify for federal financing). the parties will determine who their candidates will be, not private financing.

there's also the issue of commercial taxes. some multinational businesses manage to avoid as much as 50% of the taxes they rightly owe the U.S. government (partly due to the legal fees needed to get this money, partly due to a back-scratching relationship between business and government). i lack the expertise to figure out ways to enforce the tax laws more strict, but that's what advisors are for; in any regard, it'd be a priority.

finally, there's the revolving door between business and government. people often move between government positions and high-level private ones during the courses of their careers. i don't have a problem with this specifically, just the fact that it occurs almost exclusively between government and business why don't we see high-level politicians coming from and returning to fields in education, medicine, law enforcement, or social work? our "democracy" as it is really doesn't represent the population. i don't know if there's be anything needed to address this specifically; hopefully campgain finance reform would do the trick.

demilitarization: not a total demilitarization, of course not. but i'd definately dismantle most of our nuclear stockpile: that stuff's costly to maintain! i'd also probably expand the army's role to explicitly include reconstruction, disaster relief, etc. ideally i'd like us to never be at war, and we should put those personnel to good use more of the time (i know it's already something the army, navy, etc. does, but as far as i'm concerned, third world development should be a standing order). i'd also scale our military down considerably and rely more heavily on treaties and alliance. i'd like to improve the education and training of military personnel, pensions and other benefits.

nationalized life-care: it's rediculous that we don't have national health care. access to public education, though better than nothing, isn't based solely on merit, and is often an unrealistic goal for poorer parts of the population. i'm not saying national models would be better, and i'd certainly encourage private, tax-deductable alternatives to social security, public health care and education.

but it's extreme poverty that is my most profound concern. every bit of sociological evidence indicates that 75% of street-level crime is cause by poverty. welfare doesn't eliminate the problem, as it's often based on unrealistically low living cost projections, and the red tape to actually receive public assistance is rediculous. the idea of "the welfare mom" is an exaggeration for sure, but even if it's not: i'd rather use public funds to support the lowest level of society than let it sink into barbarism.

yes, i'd be introducing a more steeply curved tax to pay for all this. the thing is, capitalism produces poverty. yes, it also produces wealth, but that wealth only exists because its drained from other places. and after the 17th bedroom, does your house really need to be any bigger? i don't want to prevent people from pursuing wealth if that's what they want, but it'll cost them more than it does now.

new trade laws: money talks, and our money should talk. people say that our jobs going abroad are a good thing for foreign peoples. however, our imported electronics, textiles, organic produce, and many other trade items are all manufactured or otherwise produced under poor labor conditions. women in electronics factories go blind from chemical fumes. arthritis at age 30 from working with textiles. they're forced to live in dormitory-style housing, 6 to a room, under armed guard. i say it should be illegal to import or sell any product that wasn't produced under conditions that match or exceed our own in the united states.

reclaim the public spaces: i'm sorry, but cities in the U.S. have grown ugly. advertising is everywhere. i mean, everywhere. the radical part of me would want to make advertising illegal completely, but even i know that's going a bit too far. still, there's this great image in the book No Logo by Naomi Klein of a city block in which all the advertising has been airbrushed out. if felt like i'd be able to beathe there.

but it's not just advertising; it's also the effect of business on art, music, film, etc. it's become crap. i'd want to find a way to reduce advertising, and at the same time create public support for artists. art, after all, makes everyone's lives better (at least when it's something more than a money-making tactic).

architecture, too. people in older U.S. cities might not experience this problem the way i do. but i've noticed that all the new construction here in san diego is either incredibly boring, or very ugly. for example, about 2 years ago a new condo development went up in Hillcrest called The Egyptian. it was built around the entrace facade of an old theater that'd been done with relief motifs from ancient egypt. while not a perfect replica, there was real craftmanship put into that facade. it was restored, and they did a decent job. but the actual building around this entrance is hideous, all built from cheap materials and such. i understand that the people beind this building wanted to make money; but it shouldn't leave me with the cost of living in an ugly city.

...people always hear about ideas like this and throw up their arms, saying buisness wouldn't make enough money. but money is a realtive thing in capitalism, and buisness would adapt. i don't want to make over our whole society; freedom to pursue wealth is a freedom i'm not willing to marginalize, but i also think it's something that'd lose a lot of its prestige. i envision a society where people still have to work to have any measure of material luxury; but one where survival isn't at stake. this ties into one thing you said to which i really wanted to reply.

...it seems to me that generally the people who complain about capitalism are the ones who can't compete. Or younger people who are starting at the bottom of the totem pole. If anyone thinks that they can outdo me, bring it on. I'm pretty damn good at what I do. Capitalism works for me.


you miss the point here entirely. i don't want to compete.

i'm 25. i have a BA. i have a 32k/year job with full benefits. i'm not exactly at the bottom of the totem pole (though, i certainly can't see the top from here).
you've admitted that you think i've very intelligent. if i applied my intelligence towards business, i know i'd rock it. it's not that i can't compete.

not everyone wants to compete. some people just want to live. some people want to pursue things, or pursue things in ways, that aren't compatible with business. but business colonizes all things if left unfettered.

one easy way to define democracy is 'rule of the majority' (since it's logically impossible for people of differing views to all rule the way they each want). maybe it's not inherent in the definition, but there's a predicent in our democracy that the majority provide the minority special treatment, if it's needed, to live lives of relatively equal dignity. what about the section of the population, whatever its size, who don't want to compete in business?

as much i care for the poor people of the world and my own country, my criticism of capitalism is rooted in selfishness. i don't deny it. but i think noble selfishness is possible. i'm sure others feel the way i do. but my compassion for the downtroden is also part of my selfishness: it makes me feel bad to see others depraved. i don't expect anyone to agree with all this, but i'm certainly going to spend part of my life's work trying to convince people.
Reply #298 Top
not everyone wants to compete. some people just want to live. some people want to pursue things, or pursue things in ways, that aren't compatible with business. but business colonizes all things.


My feeling exactly! Well put sir, well put.
Reply #299 Top
not everyone wants to compete. some people just want to live. some people want to pursue things, or pursue things in ways, that aren't compatible with business. but business colonizes all things.


My feeling exactly! Well put sir, well put.


hear hear.

business has its place, we would have nothing to live for otherwise but those involved should understand that not everything is a commercial opportunity,

somethings shouldn't be exploited

Reply #300 Top
are you suggesting Oz has a mind ray? or is he just shrewd?


Or am I already controlling what you think? And if I am controlling what you think would I let you know I'm controlling you? Or would I?

Dance, puppets! Dance!