MarcusCardiff MarcusCardiff

The definition of treason

The definition of treason

I have a question for all peoples invaded by outside nations.

Treason is defined like this

1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

This includes everything expected of or has been done with complicity to and before the war on the peoples of Iraq.

I suggest that there is no Iraqi that should or ever will be complicit with the invading forces. for they might be treated as traitors

Does the west expect , collaborators, fifth columnists, traitors in Iraq.

NO. all we get is patriots. Iraqis that are patriotic and never traitors,
But we treat these patriots like murderous vermin.

Would we treat our own citizens the same if they colluded when another country invaded us, We would note them down , single them out and after the invaders left, Kill them as traitors.

Ask yourselves this. do we want the Iraqi people to be true patriots or fifth columnist traitors.
I can only hope that any Iraqi patriot considers their conscience first, before committing potential treason

Are we not patriots, do we not define our nations in blood, honour and sovereignty, are we not prepared to lay down our lives for the protection of our peoples whoever invades us.
How do we dare deny this basic right we hold so sacred from others.

We cannot by ourselves be brutal, if we do others deliberate harm then we are heathen's, maybe that is in our nature,
If it is not the way of mankind, then why?
77,369 views 102 replies
Reply #26 Top
Because we like to consider ourselves the huge melting pot, and apparently Americans are inborn with an amazing and extensive knowledge of their language and history. And the foreignors all have to learn those two to be a citizen.
Reply #27 Top
Honestly, I know a woman who was a guard at Guantanamo. It's as bad as the New York Times reports. There is real torture there.


It's very interesting that you should state this in this particular thread talking about treason. You see, all the "guards" at GTMO had to sign non-disclosure agreements. So if she was in fact a guard, and did in fact tell you any thing that goes on inside the wire, then she would be guilty of treason. Interesting.

Reply #28 Top
Treason isn't always morally wrong. In fact, that's one case where NOT to commit treason is morally wrong.
Reply #29 Top
So if she was in fact a guard, and did in fact tell you any thing that goes on inside the wire, then she would be guilty of treason. Interesting.


Hardly! what you call treason in this case is actually known as breach of contract
Reply #30 Top
Yes, but that does put her under the full disclosure of the Patriot Act, the government can now start buying up all the information they want from the huge media and search engines that rule the internet.

My advice, dont use search engines.
Reply #31 Top
Yes, but that does put her under the full disclosure of the Patriot Act, the government can now start buying up all the information they want from the huge media and search engines that rule the internet.

My advice, dont use search engines.


What do search engines have to do with breaches of non disclosure contracts?
Reply #32 Top
Hope that answers your question.



Yeah, OK. I just didn't buy your use of the Punic Wars as if you (or anyone, for that matter) knows now what happened then. If you read the sources closest to the events, you could make quite a mythological account of it. And it seems to me that you're doing just that by basing some argument designed to have relevance today upon such an historically flimsy notion as what Romans settled near the remains of Carthage would be thinking.

Really, in that instance, aren't we just writing stories in the past in order to use them in the here and now? That's certainly not an illegitimate thing, but we should be aware of when we're doing it.



Reply #33 Top
Treason is defined like this

1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery
.


Just using the definition at the begining of the thread Mystic.



Reply #34 Top
Treason isn't always morally wrong. In fact, that's one case where NOT to commit treason is morally wrong.


On the contrary, TREASON is always wrong. Whistleblowing is not. If she saw instances of real torture then she needed to bring it to the attention of her superiors or if she didn't trust them, then the proper authorities outside the chain. I don't think "friend, or neighbor , or 2nd cousin, or whatever" would qualify as any of those, unless of course Cornhuskermac is the proper authorities.
Reply #35 Top
On the contrary, TREASON is always wrong. Whistleblowing is not. If she saw instances of real torture then she needed to bring it to the attention of her superiors or if she didn't trust them, then the proper authorities outside the chain. I don't think "friend, or neighbor , or 2nd cousin, or whatever" would qualify as any of those, unless of course Cornhuskermac is the proper authorities.



You really believe that people should not talk about what they've seen? That's a scary opinion.

And your reliance upon dictionary definitions of treason doesn't dispell the moral imperatives of speaking the truth. I personally believe treason to be not speaking the truth when your countrymen need it to be spoken.

Hell, I have a family member now who is in the army, in Afghanistan at this very moment, unfortunately. He is one of the first ones who will talk openly about the stupidity of our current strategy there and in Iraq. From your statements I would assume that you don't really know any soldiers. They will say things that you would call TREASON. Because they will tell you the reality of what's happening.


Reply #36 Top
Interestingly enough, treason is the only crime defined by the Constitution of the US.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

So, if we were to use this as the definition of treason in Iraq, substuting Iraq for United States as appropriate, The guys going around blowing up their neighbors and theoretical allies of their current government are, in fact, traitors.

And why should I gives three rats and a fart about whether a couple of terrorist wackjobs are being tortured in order to obtain the location of their fellow traitors to Allah? If they are in the right, then their suffering here on Earth will purify them in the eyes of Allah and they will rejoice in Paradise in the hereafter. If they are wrong (and the Koran says they are wrong) then some of their sin may be expiated through the suffering they are undergoing. On a more practical note, any info they give up can save between dozens and thousands of lives. Hand me that ballpeen hammer over there. I'll get him to talk.
Reply #37 Top
On a more practical note, any info they give up can save between dozens and thousands of lives. Hand me that ballpeen hammer over there. I'll get him to talk.



No you won't get him to talk, and those he knows will be applying the same methods to your own family. You're talking like someone who has watched too much television.


Reply #38 Top
You really believe that people should not talk about what they've seen? That's a scary opinion.


I find it hard to believe that you are able to take what I said out of context, while putting my whole statement in quotes....

On the contrary, TREASON is always wrong. Whistleblowing is not. If she saw instances of real torture then she needed to bring it to the attention of her superiors or if she didn't trust them, then the proper authorities outside the chain. I don't think "friend, or neighbor , or 2nd cousin, or whatever" would qualify as any of those, unless of course Cornhuskermac is the proper authorities.


As for the "dictionary definition" of Treason, I was just using the criteria stated in the opening post. Marcus's definition is not neccessarily mine, but it is his post and i thought that was what we were talking about. As for knowing any soldiers, would my brother count? If not, could I use my nephew. What do you think? If neither one of those count, maybe I can throw myself in the mix. I'm a sailor and have been for quite a few years, does that count? And while you're contemplating that, you might want to ask yourself how i know about stuff that goes on down at the detention facility in Cuba. Ask your family member in Afganistan about security clearance and need to know. Everything the military or government does is not classified, hence his talking about stuff going on over there. However, some stuff is and I highly doubt he has told you that stuff because of the classification. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about things. Leaking classified information would be the wrong way. But like I said, I highly doubt your family member is telling you classified information.
Reply #39 Top
To begin, to say that treason is always morally wrong: baloney. Utter baloney. Caesar wasn't God, Pharaoh wasn't God, Bush isn't God. Acts of "treason" are acts against a political state, nothing more. Maybe YOU worship the United States--but I don't. It's only when the act results in the loss or risk of innocent lives that it becomes morally wrong.

But the big thing I wanted to point out was, let's not mix the legal definition of treason and the "moral" definition. Just because the angels in Congress (we know they're all angels, right?) pass some law, that doesn't define right & wrong on behalf of all American citizens. The legal definition is spelled out in the Constitution, and the woman at Gitmo did not commit that. "Morally", though, maybe she did, but in that case, NOT to speak out is what would be morally wrong.
Reply #40 Top
Just using the definition at the begining of the thread Mystic.


Ic, yea i understand.

I think in legal terms, breaching a non disclosure agreement is a specific offence wgich would need to be applied according to the terms of the contract so the question of treason wouldn't come into it unless it was actually 'in' the contract.
Reply #41 Top
On the contrary, TREASON is always wrong.


Ahem,, ok then you believe you should be still living in an English colony?
Reply #42 Top
. Marcus's definition is not neccessarily mine


This isn't my definition, It's the dictionary one.

I am just playing devils advocate with my added comments in my opening post. the issues are far wider than statements of fact. and maybe somethings that our governments conveniently ignore.

At least it has opened the debate over our "war on terror" further, that's my only motive.

When I have more time i will read through this and other threads more fully and comment further.

I am just gratified that people are prepared to think so much about issues that we are expected to either ignore or be too stupid to grasp.

Marcus


Reply #43 Top
The "insurgents", as the liberal TV and newspaper media like to call them, are Islamo Facists supplied and funded by Iran. Listen to intelligent talk radio on AM, sometimes FM, Satellite, and internet.


While I enjoy a good "intelligent" (i.e., conservative) talk show, I think you are probaby better off thinking for yourself than buying into either medium wholesale.

Specifically, I don't think your characterization of Iraqi insurgents is entirely fair. From what I can gather (I have NOT been there), some insurgents see themselves as "legitimate resistance" forces. They apparently believe that they are serving the best interests of their people (being their religious/ ethnic/ local community, vs. their country), and they feel that the current Iraqi government does not adequately represent their interests. That this concern may be valid is reflected in the current efforts of a number of nations, including the United States and Saudi Arabia, to ensure that the current Iraqi government works to treat all Iraqis fairly and equally. It is also supported by the government's tolerance toward and protection of militia groups that attacked their people (up until this year).

Although the actions of this group are often quasi-terrorist in nature, actions of resistance groups are usually seen by locals as a patriotic effort to repell an occupying power. After WWII, the French resistance were not tried wholesale as criminals, despite their sometimes questionable tactics. Unfortunately, and to their detriment, these "legitimate resistance" groups allied themselves with outside parties, including terrorists, religious zealots, and neighboring governments. This is also not unprescedented in world history... The Afghan resistance we supported cooperated with some of the same people in trying to evict their Soviet occupiers. Heck, the US sought French support during the American revolution.

The "outsiders," who probably do include some Iraqi citizens, form a second group of "insurgents." These folks are ideologically motivated, being more interested in causing the West harm than in doing good by the Iraqi people. History tends to view such groups based on the popularity of their ideals: the folks who went to Spain to fight Franco or who went to China to fight the Japanese in in the 1930s are often seen as heros. Of course, THOSE groups actually wore uniforms and took their licks like men... but that isn't as important in some cultures. In Iraq, many of the outsiders are foreigners, and many of them terrorists, but some are Iraqi citizens who have joined foreign organizations.

There is, of course, a third group in Iraq, often simply called "militias." These are the groups that, until recently, enjoyed political protection from the government, and therefore had carte blanche to engage in retaliation attacks and ethnic cleansing against their former oppressors. For historical and religious reasons, these groups have strong ties to foreign governments. However, I don't think we should make the mistake of assuming they are all puppets of those powers. Remember that Iraqi shiites and Iranian Sunnis fought hard for their own governments, and against their religious bretheren, during the Iran-Iraq War. For that matter, the Kurdish resistance in Iraq was long supported by Iran, yet Iraq's kurds are not puppets of Tehran. Again, one often takes whatever help one can get. You could call these militias "patriotic," in that they purport to defend their people. They can't really claim to be a valid resistance, however, because they aren't reisisting anything. They are effectively paramilitary thugs.

If you look at the reports coming out of Iraq, the "insurgents" seems to be splitting on the distinction between those groups who see themselves as a legitimate resistance and those who are fighting to make a statement/ hurt the West/ punish their neighbors. The "legitimate resistance" folks appear to recognize that the needs of their people may yet be served by the central government, given the changes that are taking place. Further, they are learning the hard way that extremists will not tolerate moderation... see the attacks on tribal leaders and fighting among "insurgent" groups. Overall, attacks by these folks on government and Coalition forces seem to be falling off, and we hear of peace ovetures. I imagine that many of the "legitimate resistance" folks are now beginning to regret their involvement with outsiders just as many in the government are regretting their ties to the militias.



Are the militias committing treason? They technically were not until this year, because they acted with tacit consent of their government. They were still doing wrong, but wrong and treason are not exactly equal.

Are the "outsiders" committing treason? Only those who are Iraqi citizens. If their motivation for participating in the insurgency was other than to protect their people, then their aggression has no moral legitimacy, and they are traitors; they cooperated with organizations outside of the Iraqi government to achieve aims other than those of their government, and which were not in the best interest of their people. The non-Iraqis in this group cannot be guilty of treason, because it isn't their government.

Are the "legitimate resistance" folks committing treason? Technically they might be, but since they are participants in an organized rebellion of a sort, the point is essentially moot. No one seems to be bothered that the founding fathers of the US were technically traitors to the crown. If I were an Iraqi, I'd be willing to forgive those who only engaged in actions against unfettered, uniformed personnel, or committed nonlethal sabotage. Heck, even as an American, I'm willing to forgive an Iraqi who stood up with a gun and fought our troops like a man. I wish they hadn't, for everyone's sake, but that is war.

On the other hand, any individuals who have participated in killing civilians, terrorist acts, or other atrocities are criminals. At that point, the question of being a traitor is really secondary.


Anyway, I would hesitate to declare all Iraqi insurgents (and that is the actual military term, not a media fabrication) as puppets of Iran. Until recently, no one even suspected that Iran had anything to do with Sunni insurgent groups, and we don't know that that is even prevalent (it appeared to surprise the Coalition commanders). As for "Islamo-Facists," regardless of how hateful and pointless that term may be (does that mean Hitler was a Christo-Facist?), I think it is safe to say that not all insurgents are necessarily motivated by religion or their preferred form of government. I would guess that economic concerns (specifically not wanting to become a poverty-stricken minority in an oil-rich country) motivate many of them. You'll notice that alleviating these concerns is a major focus of current Coalition/ Iraqi policy... it just doesn't get the press that the crackdown gets.

Reply #44 Top
Specifically, I don't think your characterization of Iraqi insurgents is entirely fair. From what I can gather (I have NOT been there), some insurgents see themselves as "legitimate resistance" forces. They apparently believe that they are serving the best interests of their people (being their religious/ ethnic/ local community, vs. their country), and they feel that the current Iraqi government does not adequately represent their interests. That this concern may be valid is reflected in the current efforts of a number of nations, including the United States and Saudi Arabia, to ensure that the current Iraqi government works to treat all Iraqis fairly and equally. It is also supported by the government's tolerance toward and protection of militia groups that attacked their people (up until this year).


Actually, I think that they are partially right. Iraq is defided into three different and hostile cultures. And each culture dosnt want the other in power for fear that they will get abused and in turn destroyed. So now they fight back the only way they see right, in violance.

Even polls currently there show that the people would rather be divided into three seperate states that would be bound by a confederate of federal type constitution. That way locals dont have to fear that the federate government would try to destroy their culture.

What do search engines have to do with breaches of non disclosure contracts?


Do you know how much information about your personality, your behavior, and in general you companies like google can compile through the use of search engines?

On the contrary, TREASON is always wrong


Really now, let me ask you then. Do you think the US should exist?
Reply #45 Top
Ahem,, ok then you believe you should be still living in an English colony?


Really now, let me ask you then. Do you think the US should exist?


Come on now people, well, let me just give a few examples...

Was it wrong to drop the atomic bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

Was it wrong to firebomb Dresden?

Was it wrong to fight the Civil War?

My personal feelings on the wrongness or rightness of an action do not have any bearing on whether said action is right or wrong. I believe that's what they call relativism. I wasn't stating a personal belief, rather I was simply stating that treason, as defined, is wrong. Nothing more, nothing less. And just to be informed, all three of the questions i posed, although alot of people would find them wrong and they probably were, I agree with every decision. The Atomic bombs? If killing even 1 Japanese saved an American I'm all for it. Same goes for Dresden as far as Germans go. As for the Civil War, yes, I think we did the right thing and I'm from the north. Here's one last example to try and make it clear where I was coming from with my statement that treason is wrong. If you have to steal a bottle of milk for your 6 month old child, or they will die, is it wrong?

Reply #46 Top
And just to be informed, all three of the questions i posed, although alot of people would find them wrong and they probably were, I agree with every decision. The Atomic bombs? If killing even 1 Japanese saved an American I'm all for it. Same goes for Dresden as far as Germans go. As for the Civil War, yes, I think we did the right thing and I'm from the north. Here's one last example to try and make it clear where I was coming from with my statement that treason is wrong. If you have to steal a bottle of milk for your 6 month old child, or they will die, is it wrong?


First we take this.

My personal feelings on the wrongness or rightness of an action do not have any bearing on whether said action is right or wrong.


And compare it to this.

And then I will ask you a question of my own. Do you like it when you contradict yourself?
Reply #47 Top
I very much agree that MarcusCardiff can sure start an interesting thread and I'm always glad to see folks talking & thinking about the past. I also heartily second the calls to avoid joining any of the Tin Pan Alley cults of personality that are springing up like stinky fungi all over the media these days. Anderson Cooper, Sean Hannity, all those overpaid prattlers need to be taken with big grains of salt.

I say the above largely because I'm a convert to democracy but my first love was philosophical anarchism. The neat thing about treason for us lay-scholar types in the US is that our framers wrote that stuff at the same time they were arguing over whether to do much democracy *at all*.

The US constitituional language about treason is clearly based in an 18th-century view of warfare as struggle among monarchs. When you replace monarchies with democratic republics but retain a monarchist/authoritarian concept like treason, the whole thing really does turn into a mess more hairy than the scariest thing you ever found in the back of your fridge.
Reply #48 Top
When you replace monarchies with democratic republics but retain a monarchist/authoritarian concept like treason, the whole thing really does turn into a mess more hairy than the scariest thing you ever found in the back of your fridge.


Very well said.
Reply #49 Top

I don't see the contradiction. I thought I said that my feelings on the rightness or wrongness doesn't make it right or wrong. Even if I think something is right, it doesn't necessarily make it so. I'm sorry if my wording created any confusion, English isn't exactly my strong suit, but seeing as how that is the launguage i was born and raised with I try to make due. Nevertheless, quite an interesting subject we're discussing here, wouldn't you agree?
Reply #50 Top
My personal feelings on the wrongness or rightness of an action do not have any bearing on whether said action is right or wrong.


I couldn't initially see your point but with thought, I think you are trying to say,
Just because a situation has two sides to the argument doesn't mean any action taken is necessarily right or wrong.

If so you are totally correct, Situations like Iraq have many sides and the job of deciding appropriate actions can be almost impossible.
You will never please everyone, and sometimes nobody. does this mean that appropriate actions should not be taken?

Please tell me if i have understood you correctly, if not, then I am sorry.

PS. I am happy that so many people are getting so involved in these threads, It has surprised me greatly.