Constructors & the lack of speedy turns

from Stardock Forums
Let's face it...Managing constructors take up a ton of gameplay time. 80% of my turn is taken up by sending them to various starbases for upgrades.

To give everyone an idea of what I'm doing, here's a sample of a typical turn...

1. I see that some of my planets built constructors. I go through each planet that built a constructor by clicking on its production message. At the planet view screen, I double-click on the constructor to launch them into space.

2. Once all newly built constructors are launched, I need to figure out where to send them. Since I don't know by looking at a starbase what still needs to be built, I have to guess. I can look at the starbase infoscreen and compare the bonuses to what I think the maximums are. Or, I can click the bonuses to show a list of what's already been built. Either way, I have to know what I can build.

3. Now that I know which starbases need upgrading, I send the constructors out. Again, I have to remember who needs to go where. If I forget, I have to check again.

This takes 3-4 minutes on a medium galaxy.

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Here are a few ways to improve things.

Suggestion 1: Let each star system set a rally point for their constructors.
Suggestion 2: Have an option to auto-launch all constructors.
Suggestion 3: Add a visual representation to starbases if they have upgrade options available. Each bonus (attack, defense, repair, mining, trade, influence, and production) should have its own indicator. This way, if you have a starbase that needs 3 production upgrades, 2 mining upgrades, and some defense upgrades, you can see them without having Indicators should *not* be based on which class the improvement comes from - there are production improvements under mining and economy.
Suggestion 4: Let us define a build order for starbases. Every time a constructor upgrades a starbase, it builds the next upgrade in the queue. ALL UNBUILT UPGRADES, available or not, should be queueable...even at the beginning of the game.

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Here's how my turn would go if things were different...

1. Some of my planets have built constructors. They automatically launch into space and head towards a predefined rally point - the starbase I'm constructing in their system.

2. Some of these constructors make it to a starbase in one move, and since the module build order was already assigned, they automatically perform an upgrade.

3. I wasn't watching, so I missed the fact that I was sending constructors to a maxed out starbase. I look at my other starbases, and thanks to the added indicators that appear on the starbase graphics, I readjust my rally points.

As you can see, my turns would be MUCH shorter!

- Nobody

~SDC~
813 views 24 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
From Brad's update, ships will leave orbit automatically shortly. That is a step in the right direction.
I would expect the Dev team to come up with Rally points in the future, with the amount of requests for that feature.

As a suggestion, I dont keep ships in orbit, expect is border areas that may be invaded.
So when the turn is completed all the stars that had a ship built, are hightlighted in the minimap.
Click on the minimap sector, then the star in main map, orbit and then right click on the approximate destination via the minimap.

To remember location, the old (did I say old) square paper 24x24, with dots, works for me. :)

~SDC~
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
After just spending hours and hours managing Starbases, I can relate to IBN's valid points. Moreover, he has offered improvement suggestions as well as constructive notations. I might add that the overall construction time for some units - even with well-funded and strong planets - seems to be a bit long. By about 40% or so. However, I am so new to the game that my overall experience (read capability) is not yet enough to have a full grasp to comment definitively. In other words, play more, talk less, then discuss.

AA
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Perhaps you could tell your starbases what upgrades you want (not too much detail... just say "max out mining", and/or "max out influence"), and add an "auto-build" option to constructor's orders list (c.f. auto-survey, or sector sweep). A constructor with the auto-build order would head towards the nearest starbase needing an upgrade (and when it does so, that particular module is flagged as "pending" so you get just enough constructors per base). When a new module becomes available, any idle constructors set to auto-build would all head off and add it to the bases that have the appropriate flag set.

When de-orbiting a constructor, a "set to auto-build yes/no" query with a launch button could pop up in the space where the troop-loading dialog goes to make the de-orbit procedure nice an painless.

The more I think about it, the more I like that idea.


~SDC~
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
Perhaps we could use some starbase governors to specify the various build orders?
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
Cataleptic,

There are two problems with setting constructors to autobuild.

1. Adding a prompt would mean there would be another step that takes up time.

2. How could you tell the AI to upgrade your mining bases in deep space rather than one close to a colony?

- Nobody
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
I too, feel IBN's pain.

How about this. Once a starbase is built, select which options you want to have built. This is a small nodification to the existing starbase addition screen. Select options as done currently, but text color changes when option is functional. Then all you have to do is send constructors and when everything you want built is built, the constructor balks and waits for new move instructions.

This should relieve major code working issues, except for the expansion of databases, but should prove to be workable solution.

~SDC~
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
Great suggestions IBN!

I just finished a medium game, where I had at least 25+ starbases. I must have spent a huge proportion of my gaming time just sending constructors out to each starbase, and going through the upgrade process.

Dont get me wrong, I love the starbase upgrade idea. I still chuckle at the idea of my terror star steaming into an enemy sector on course for star destruction, whilst offering water slides and all the convenience of a massive shop mall to its intended victims. ;)

However, the upgrade process definately needs to be streamlined. Each starbase needs about 30-40 constructors to fully upgrade near the end of the game (more if its a mining one), and somehow automating some of the micromanagement would be a godsend.
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
By the time you do all that work, why not just eliminate contructors as a necessity for UPGRADES and only for starting new starbases. Starbases should be able to build their own upgrades, but the formula on how long that would take would be a big debate. my 0.02

~SDC~
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
Rather than clicking on the production messages, I do it when I get taken planet by planet to those who've built ships and just launch them from that screen. Of course it would be nice to launch from the ship list by double clicking, but having ships automatically lauch upon build will make a bunch of this easier.



~SDC~
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
To expand on Purefx's idea, there's always the option to abstract the entire upgrade process and put a new "upgrade starbase" item in our military build queue so constructors are only required to build the starbase initially. There could be a slight penalty in efficiency or delay in effect for planets that are attempting to upgrade starbases that are farther away. Seems like a good idea to me, and it would certainly eliminate this huge time sink late game.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Addendum:

How the "upgrade starbase" item would actually improve your starbase will need to be specified by assigning governors to each starbase of course. The process of upgrading starbases will therefore be two step:

1): Order a planet to send its production to a specific starbase

2): Designate the starbase's build order so it knows how to direct the production received from planets
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
Rather than deal with a whole set of governors, how about the ability to assign a rally point for each planet's ship builds. Set it to the desired starbase, then start cranking out constructors.


~SDC~
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Rally points would be nice, but you would still have to to pick each upgrade manually and keep track of which starbases are saturated and which need further development. If the entire upgrade process is tied into military build queues directly, a planet can just automatically stop transferring production when the starbase governor fulfills his build order. The only downside would be making it impossible to blockade a starbase without some more programming, but the huge reduction in such repetitive activity would be far more valuable to this game I think.
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
If I had to choose, I'd like to keep starbase upgrading tied to constructors. Having actual ships fly out adds tactics to the game.

After reading all the ideas, I've refined my original suggestions. Here's what I think would work the best.

1. Allow us to set a rally point for constructors.

2. When we build a starbase, let us choose how we should prioritize it. (ex: Upgrade production first, then mining, then defense. Ignore influence, trade, and attack.) This could be done with an interface very similar to the general governer setup.

It would be best to limit the queue to upgrade areas rather than actual upgrades. That way, as new starbase modules are researched, we don't have to modify all our starbase queues.

3. When a constructor docks with the starbase, it looks at the upgrade queue. If production is #1, it looks to see what upgrades are available and chooses the one that gives the biggest bonus (Phase II Factory vs Interstellar Distributor).

4. If a starbase has queued upgrade options available, add a visual indicator to its picture.

- Nobody
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
1. OK, instead of a prompt, you could choose a default in the options screen (where the automatic de-orbit option will probably reside).

2. I have no idea :) But I don't want to have to update a starbase governor each time I get another module. Actually, I wish the governor's build list persisted between games and wasn't reset for each new game, as well. Perhaps keep a priority list for starbases or module-types...

Personally, I don't like *too* much automation. I'd rather micro-manage and get it right than have automationc mess things up. I don't want my constructors getting picked off if I can help it :)


~SDC~
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
1. OK, instead of a prompt, you could choose a default in the options screen (where the automatic de-orbit option will probably reside).

2. I have no idea :) But I don't want to have to update a starbase governor each time I get another module. Actually, I wish the governor's build list persisted between games and wasn't reset for each new game, as well. Perhaps keep a priority list for starbases or module-types...

Personally, I don't like *too* much automation. I'd rather micro-manage and get it right than have automationc mess things up. I don't want my constructors getting picked off if I can help it :)


~SDC~
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
Urk. Sorry about that... not sure how it happened :(

Hopefully Brad's pet Feature Spies are watching this thread and devising a brilliant solution to our woes :)

~SDC~
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
rally points are still extremely repetitious and redundant. the idea is to make the process less time consuming. starbases with queues would be a start. obviously there needs to be some balancing as starbases are VERY powerful assets. I think stardock should set up a time to interact with developers more on ideas like these so as to not ruin the game balance

~SDC~
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
IMHO, by far the easiest way to keep the game balance (and equally importantly, the *character* of the game) intact is to (somehow or other) automate the interface, rather than alter the actual mechanic. Being able to buy starbase upgrades directly is *asking* for trouble. A rich race could buy themselves a fully armoured culture palace in short order :p

Rally points can indeed be tedious and fiddly to manage, but then so could individual queues for starbases. OTOH, generic queues are (of course) not always what you want.

What if each starbase had a set of checkboxes, one for each 'development track'. Any starbase that still has un-built modules for a checked track (and does not already have a con-ship assigned to that module) automatically shows up in the 'starbase-waypoint' list. Each colony has a 'con-ship destination' option, which the player can set to any starbase that shows up on the auto-generated SBW list. The SBW list could also include meta-options, like 'nearest', 'farthest', 'most bang-for-buck' and anything else Brad can come up with :).

As for conships that have already been constructed... perhaps they be tallied up into a pool. You open up the starbase info, and it shows how many unbuilt and unassigned modules there are (maybe on a slider). You drag the slider along, it grabs the nearest idle conship and assigns it to the task. The new graphics that Brad's going to have put in that indicate when a starbase with a checked track has unassigned modules available to be built will let you know when you need to do this :)

Or perhaps it could be done via a screen in the domestic info. It shows a list of all starbase modules. If there are any starbases which have a module's track checked, but don't have that module, then double-clicking on the module assigns as many conships as possible to installing that module on starbases which want it.

Or perhaps Brad could expose a ship-management API, then we could write our own DLLs to do whatever we want :D

Or maybe he could write an AI routine that reads our minds using sub-ether flux anomalies and re-route the data matrix through the holodeck. Or something :)

~SDC~
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
What if starbases cold build constructers ?

Elrikk


~SDC~
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
"cold" above = could. Duh!

Elrikk


~SDC~
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
Same problem... given that SBs don't show up outside scanner range, it'd be all too easy to plop an SB deep in enemy territory and build it up completely unnoticed. IMHO, any solution to this problem will need to keep SB construction as-is, otherwise The Consequences Could Be Terrible(tm).

~SDC~
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
Perhaps something similar to the little indicators around planets? When you build an economic capital or manufacturing capital, or when you have ships in orbit around a planet, a little icon appears in it's own "orbit" of the planet, letting you know that such and such an upgrade has been built, or there's ships defending the planet, etc.
Would it be possible to just have little colour coded circles orbiting your own starbases (not the AI ones, obviously) that just indicate whether it has any of a certain type of module capacity left available? Obviously it would still be up to you to work out whether or not the one orange circle means there's a resource mining upgrade left or a production enhancement left, but it'd make it easier to spot the lesser developed starbases when you have a clump or loose cluster of them within a sector. :)

~SDC~
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top
How about a compromise by automating the planet to starbase production transfer like freighters in trade routes? What we would have then is:

1): Order planet to transfer production to specific starbase with a new item in their military build queue

2): Setup and assign a starbase governor that inherits a certain build queue

3): Every few turns the planet will produce a supply ship that automatically travels to the designated starbase and upgrades it. Might be a good idea to make the supply ship represent a smaller amount of production so losing one doesn't result in too much damage.

The result is basically full automation of the starbase upgrade process, with easy control through starbase governors and a new "upgrade starbase" item the military build queue. The only downside would be loss of direct control for supply ships en route to upgrading starbases. Looking at how tedius it is to manage constructors in larger maps, it seems like a trade off I'm willing to make.