Was It An Honor Killing?

It seems to be a Middle East thing. You don't see them at all in Indonesia, which has about 200 million Muslims. Don't forget Christianity/Judaism allowed for honour killings too (Leviticus is full of excuses for those in a mind for a little murder) when they mostly lived in the Middle East.

There's something about living in a desert region that a) makes you good at astronomy, found major religions, c) fight constantly and d) kill your children because they annoyed you somehow.

It's sad that these attitudes are brought with them when they arrive in other regions, but the good news is that such attitudes don't tend to last. Second generation immigrants lose almost all of their old sins and take on those of their adoptive country, so there's something to look forward too.

EDIT: Only just realised what you meant by the last sentence. Sorry, I can't give a reason to kill your children after they've had a medical examination. You'll have to find one yourself. But I hope I've put it into a bit of context for you. Mediaeval attitudes that most other regional faiths have grown out of - most Orthodox groups, the Kurds, Sikhs, Buddhists etc - have persisted untouched in the less well developed areas. Wealth and education seem to be the keys to eradicating it.

being the only "lefty" you spawned, i'll give it a shot.
"they" always tell us that its not the religion, its just one nut-case. and for the most part, i think "they" are right.
there are also plenty of examples of people doing outlandish things in the name of jesus. some people just get too far away from anything reasonable in their lives, and can't keep up with cultural evolution.
remember that it used to be legal to kill a mormon in missouri, in your lifetime. maybe in mine too. now we may elect one. probably not, but maybe.

It is amazing to me that they, the dads and any male member of any of those families can do what they do. Recently one dad did the same thing to his daughter here in Florida too, all because she was going to marry someone he didn't approve of! It's disgusting! It is their culture, and something we obviously don't agree with yes. But I too can't get over the justification of killing your child just because they don't do what we want them to!

remember that it used to be legal to kill a mormon in missouri, in your lifetime. maybe in mine too. now we may elect one. probably not, but maybe.

What does this have to do with anything? I had to come back and wonder what the heck this response was about, not the article!

What does this have to do with anything?

I think he is pointing out that you don't have to be a Muslim to come up with wacky laws...Christians have indeed done some pretty outrageous stuff in the name of God. History is full of zealots whose actions in the name of whatever God they believe in is usually a cover for their own agendas.

Don't forget Christianity/Judaism allowed for honour killings too (Leviticus is full of excuses for those in a mind for a little murder) when they mostly lived in the Middle East.

I am reasonably familiar with Mosaic Law and it was brutal but I don't hear about too many Jews getting stoned now days for walking too far on the Sabbath. On the other hand, you can still loose a hand if you are a thief under Sharia law. It is barbaric, and it is way out of date.

It's disgusting!

I could not have put it any better myself.

I spent a little time in that desert a few years ago and I have to say that my initial impression was that no one in their right mind would want to live there. As I saw more of the area and its people, I had the distinct impression that it was an EVIL place. To watch the way the men lorded it over the wife and kids was sickening. I have always been a pretty strict daddy, and on occasion I felt like smacking a kid or two...but I have two daughters...I cannot see a circumstance where I would feel justified in shooting either of them. When I was in Saudi, the men I saw there were soulless, they had empty eyes. They hired foreigners to do their work for them....they even hired us to fight their war for them...and the royal family got a free pass on everything and outsiders could be put to death for minor infringements. Well...the royal family even has its limits...they executed one of their princesses in 77 for marrying a commoner. My point in all this is that I do not understand why we are cozying up to this and all the other barbaric, backward, ignorant, self-serving, tyrants...there has to be more than oil behind all of it...they do not DESERVE our support and protection. What are we doing?

oops. Ya got me all red and sweaty and off point...sorry 'bout dat. I just don't like 'em too much.

I am reasonably familiar with Mosaic Law and it was brutal but I don't hear about too many Jews getting stoned now days for walking too far on the Sabbath. On the other hand, you can still loose a hand if you are a thief under Sharia law. It is barbaric, and it is way out of date.

I have no answer as to "why".  It is beyond me, and my ability to comprehend where the honor is.  And as Cacto points out, it appears to die out once the people are taken out of a certain environment (2nd generation).

It is also true that other religions (your example of Hindus - toothache's example against Mormons) are not pure in that regard.  But what I cant understand are the people that try to excuse and/or dismiss this behaviour "because so and so did it as well".  That is so assinine.  Yes, Christians DID it.  There are so many things wrong with that statement that it sometimes floors me more than the acts themsevles.

First, note the tense.  Are we to continually bring up past holocausts to explain current ones that have no relation in intent or action?  That is again excusing the perpertrators for the crimes, just because "they (someone in some period of time) did it too".

Second, the statement cries out that 2 wrongs must make a right.  If the speaker does not beleive that, then why are they bringing up a past crime whose perpertrators have long turned to dust?  To show that 2 wrongs now make a right?

There is no excuse for these acts, and excusing/explaining them with a litany of past or current injustices is only enabling future acts.  But unfortunately, in western society today, it is not enough to have a moral compass to live by.  We must encompass all the other morals of other societies into our own and not condemn that which we do not understand, regardless of what our perceived values tell us is morally wrong and repugnant.

I dont know what is worse.  The cretins who think there is such a concept as an Honor Killing - or the clowns who would have us believe we must accept/excuse it because we do not understand their culture.

It is such a horrible thing. They just flat out are misogynists. They do not kill their sons in this way, just their daughters. The only good thing that I can say about it is at least it is getting media coverage and cases are being prosecuted. It used to be that the authorities just looked the other way. My hubby says that one of the big reasons "they" hate us is because we treat our women well. I think there is something to that.

I like to think my argument is more nuanced than that. People do it because they're people. They're just as demonic as they are saintly and you're only going to become an evil bastard yourself if you pretend to be better than other people. As the dead white man said, "All evil begins with thinking of other people as things." Imagine what could drive your neighbour to start killing kids for cultural reasons and you'll have an insight into what could drive a foreigner to do it - foreigners really aren't all that different.

That's why finding explanations for phenomena and relating them to histories and cultures that we understand ourselves is important, even if our closest related culture was hundreds or even thousands of years ago. If I thought you understood Mayan culture better I would have tried to find one from that society. But generally people know about the Jews and the early Christian church, so they tend to get dragged out in the West. Horses for courses and so on.

Good comments, all. Doc has a pretty solid sight picture on why it is so upsetting...and maybe some inherited guilt is part of it...yeah, we did some nasty stuff in the name of. And I am a firm believer in searching history for clues to dealing with the now, but again, I point out that not too many Christians and Jews are killing their children because they like rock and roll. It is just too painful to look at the pictures of the girls and think that their father could feel they were dishonoring his name.

Mama, you are so spot on. In one case the husband killed the wife because she was raped by his brother. The brother is still around and doing fine. Honor restored. That is sooooo wrong.

I think there is something to that.

I agree. Your guy must be pretty smart.

Cacto, I appreciate you well thought out responses. I am not sure that these things fade after the first generation. I think it really depends on the amount of assimilation the family has gone through. If they are trying to "fit in" they will not act like they did at home but if they are clinging to the "old ways"...then this crap happens.

After all this, I remembered that when I lived in Texas, the law there seemed to be that if you caught another fella riding you lady, you could shoot him and be justified, but if you shot both it was murder. Reverse Honor Killing?

It does sound quite similar. Isn't it nice that people are much the same everywhere? It's just a shame that so many cultures lack the wealth/space/freedom/whatever it is that makes evil unattractive.

Finding explanations based upon history is good. That is what history is SUPPOSED to be for. But lately - and this is not specifically directed at anyone on this board - the trend has been to not seek explanations, but to silence the outrage over these acts by trying to shame the speaker with sins of their fathers. Thus my diatribe.

If we prevent any German from ever speaking about genocide because of the Third Reich, then we are as guilty as the deniers. Perhaps more so since we are now abetting a new round of genocide.

the trend has been to not seek explanations, but to silence the outrage over these acts by trying to shame the speaker with sins of their fathers. Thus my diatribe.

Yeah, I get it. We should learn from history's errors, not use history as a whip against any group that feels another group has not earned the right to act out in barbaric fashion...? You are right

Isn't it nice that people are much the same everywhere?

At some level, people have similar feelings and motivations...needs...food, clothing, shelter, someone warm to snuggle up to...but I have been to several places and to say that people are much the same just isn't my experience. Sorry.