kingberk kingberk

Defense is useless.

Defense is useless.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that all defense (except hangar defense) is useless. Turret platforms can't kill anything. They just get popped one by one. Phase inhibitors are mostly useless, too- all they do is slow them down by a few secondsG. I understand there were issues in beta, but seriously... I'm really, REALLY tired of people phase warping around the entire system with 200 ships, completely unhindered. And don't tell me about ion bolt- that is one ship for one race with a low range. Repair platforms are nice but what use is it when they can just go around?


Fixes:
1) Boost turret DPS. Not by much, but something that makes the 75 metal worth it. They have terrible range!
2) Change phase inhibitors. If it was my way, they'd completely stop jumping. I understand some people don't like that, so what do you suggest for a solution?
3) Give turrets a bonus against capitals. Capitals have so much HP that they can laugh off just about any number of turrets. A small buff in this area would do some good.


Who knows, maybe instead of meddling with defenses they should just make phase inhibitors stop jumping entirely. That'd be a big buff to defense. Atm though it is pointless because you can just go around it nomatter how well-defended a position is. That is stupid.
153,684 views 136 replies
Reply #126 Top
Defense is not useless. It cant fend off a large fleet, but fully developed it can holds its own against 90% of pirate attacks and be a real help to defendding fleet wehn larger forces attack. I usually build 4-6 hangers,1-2 repair bays and rest are turrets
Reply #127 Top

Ok, new tact, or less tact.

Eoder, and any future moron that just arbitrarily dismisses the post and replies to it anyway. Yes, the fleet system sucks and doesn't scale, no it's not impossible to win a multi-star game Some of us have done it, rather easily too. Learn.

Once you take an entire solar system, this is what you do. Put one third of your entire force in your star well. It should be very heavy in bombers, positioned in as optimal a point as possible, on loose or not a fleet at all to avoid failed pursuit. While they travel through your star well. they will get the shit chewed out of them by your bombers. When they leave the starwell, follow them. If you've got access to a slowing unit, use it, but strike craft are how you chase a fleet around and defend a closed star system.

With the rest of your force, create two fleets, a smaller one for defense, and a large one for conquest. Hit the next star well and just roll it over, sending the defense fleet in behind as soon as the last planet is up and running. If your fleets are worth a damn, you can't lose. Pick one ai and wipe it out, fortify, then move onto the next.

Even a random huge only has 5 stars and 10 players. You should be able to easily kill any defensive ai fleet with a well designed group including high level capital ships. The problem isn't that you can't chase the enemy down, it's that you're trying to chase them down. Butcher them with bombers until they aren't a threat, then ignore them. When you have multiple stars to defend, keep shrinking your defense force, one high level carrier capital ship in each star well goes a long way. When you get attacked, retreat them if they're attacked, and build your defensive fleet on the fly once you know where they are going. You can send a huge stream of units at them even if you've only got a couple hundred fleet points available. Just keep attacking them with the bulk of your fleet and you'll be just fine.
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First i only posted my thoughts, and i can be wrong. But i don't think that for that you need to call me moron or anything like that.

I have tried several approach in game and one is very similar at then one you posted, that it basically is to have a big fleet in the star to catch any jumping enemy.

In my games i experienced 2 issues:

1- When the system is in contention.

2- In a games with more thant 2 players usually there are a lot of fleets transiting between stars. your fleet catch and starts fighting the 1st, and follows it till the end of the gravity ring tll enemy jumps, but during this "fight" others fleets keep jumping.
Reply #128 Top
I have played a few games now. I managed to hold my own until I got greedy and attempted to annex one planet too many. I thought I could rely on my defences but they really are useless without a fleet nearby.

Personally, I would rather have more effective defences that do more damage rather than simply “stall for time”. We don’t build defences for that reason alone in reality; they are also designed to HURT the enemy as well.

Hell, it’s like building a load of farms in Warcraft II to prevent the enemy from getting to your base too quickly. It has no place in space!
Reply #129 Top

Personally, I would rather have more effective defences that do more damage rather than simply “stall for time”. We don’t build defences for that reason alone in reality; they are also designed to HURT the enemy as well.
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How much attention are you giving to your defenses? I can tie up an attacking fleet for quite awhile if I monitor the status of them and replace losses quickly. Construction frigates hastily building gauss turrets/missile batteries/Laser Platforms in the heat of battle while enemy bombers are divebombing a defensive asteroid base reminds me a lot of a line from Patton's speech to the Third Army

One of the bravest men that I ever saw was a fellow on top of a telegraph pole in the midst of a furious fire fight in Tunisia. I stopped and asked what the hell he was doing up there at a time like that. He answered, "Fixing the wire, Sir". I asked, "Isn't that a little unhealthy right about now?" He answered, "Yes Sir, but this goddamn wire has to be fixed".
End of quote


Taking one of my defensive positions will lose you two capital ships, maybe three assuming I'm setting frigate production to reinforce that position.

I'm currently playing Gateway with an interesting situation where I own Xi, Gateway, and the three asteroid gravity wells that lead to Gateway. I'm getting hit on all three constantly but I haven't been pushed out yet. I'm having a lot of fun, and I don't know why everybody else isn't when faced with similar situations.
Reply #130 Top
The only time Gauss is useful is if the enemy just stands there going "Duh".

I love watching single ships just fly right THROUGH all the turrets, only one or two actually FIRE on it (the rest just ignore it), and it doesnt' take more than 25% shield damage.
Reply #131 Top
While I agree there's a cost/effectiveness problem with defenses, it sounds like the problem most of you (and yes, myself) are having isn't the defense systems, it's the diplomacy. In the current system, the AIs team up all the time, but it's incredibly difficult to get an alliance with an AI, and way too easy (fail to complete one mission) to lose that alliance.
Reply #132 Top

While I agree there's a cost/effectiveness problem with defenses, it sounds like the problem most of you (and yes, myself) are having isn't the defense systems, it's the diplomacy. In the current system, the AIs team up all the time, but it's incredibly difficult to get an alliance with an AI, and way too easy (fail to complete one mission) to lose that alliance.
End of quote


I play with locked teams now just for that reason :P

I think once you have a Peace Treaty, missions should be optional at the very least.
Reply #133 Top
First post, but I had an idea that would make defense a little more viable.
Here it goes:

A tactical shipyard, that takes maybe 8 tactical slots. It's just like a regular frigate factory, and produces controllable frigates just like a frigate factory, but here's the catch: the frigates it makes *cannot* phase jump (like the construction frigate you get at the start) and use only 1 or 2 fleet supply.

This would essentially allow the player to create a defense fleet around every planet since the defense craft would only use a small amount of fleet supply, and create another mobile fleet from a regular frigate factory to take over other planets planets.
Reply #134 Top
Until about 4 hours ago, I didn't agree with the OP, but now I have seen what he means. Defending is underpowered. Whats all the more embarassing, is that it took a easy AI to show me this...

Let me explain, I was playing Vasari, 4 players(3 of which are AI, 2 are Vasari, and the 3rd is whatever gets the Robotics cruiser). I was ranked number one for economy, Militarily I was number 3(although I was ranked number 1 in defenses), and number 2 for Empire. I was engaged in a 2-on-1 with the other 2 vasari's on my northern flank. I was holding, and in some cases making gains, and using my superior economy was able to maintain pirate attacks against both of them. My southern flank was absolutely silent. It was basically being held at a single planet, with a tac. score of 35, all of which was invested into turrets and hangar defences(If I recall correctly there were 15 turrets and 5 hangars), and it had it's own small defence fleet(made up of about 10 heavy frigates, 5 heavy cruisers, and 2 carrier cruisers), the next system down had dockyards so I could start pumping out reinforcements if I had too, and there was a "reserve" fleet nearby(about 2 jumps away), made up of 7 carrier-cruisers and 2 carrier capitals and about 5 anti-fighter frigates.

Well... the 4th faction attacked my planet. It warped in with no less than 5 of the carrier-capital ships, 2 of the heavy battleship type, who knows how many carrier-cruisers, and then a whole mess of frigates of every type. Now at this point I'm thinking "I can hold them," and then I saw them disgorge all the fighters and bombers they had. My own fighter and bomber wings dissappeared VERY quickly. As in so fast, that in less than 30 seconds they had small craft superiority, now normally this wouldn't be so bad, the turrets had a lot of overlapping fields of fire, so I was feeling good, except that the entire force sat outside of the turrets range, while the siege frigates flanked around them(I had the turrets arranged in a semi-circle so that they posed a threat to any force that came in through the 2 phase-lanes) and immediately went for my planet. The fighters and bombers ripped the turrets to pieces one at a time(it took no more than 3 minutes until the wall of turrets I once had was only one or two heavily damaged turrets off to the extreme flank), while my attempt to move my fleet to attack theirs failed utterly. Of course I ordered the aforementioned reserve fleet to move in(I didnt realize that 2 jumps would take so long) and the orbital shipyards on the next planet over quickly spun into life.

Now, keep in mind at this stage in the game both logistics and cap ship crews were nearly maxed out on my side, and most of that was being used to hold against 2 attacking Vasari players, so I didn't have much to spare. With the turrets neutralized, the main fleet moved in and began either assisting in the orbital bombardment of my planet, mopping up remaining ships, or destroying whatever was in orbit, before the reserve fleet could even arrive(it was in the next system over at this point), the bulk of the enemy fleet was already moving on to the second planet(I.E. the next line of defense, where they repeated this process in largely the same manner, although at a slightly slower rate as they HAD in fact taken casualties... not much mind you, but enough to slow them down by maybe a minute or two). I of course resigned, as I was quickly down 2 planets, and they were moving on to my 3rd and 4th unimpeded and were soon going to be in my home planets gravity well.

Some of you may accuse me of sucking, but considering that was my 8th or 9th game of sins since release, and the previous two games I had dominated the map rather well(including games v. normal and/or hard AI), I don't think thats the case(and what the hell kind of easy AI was that? That AI was definitely a lot smarter than the other easy AI's I have faced). Regardless, I realized somethhing:
1 - Turrets don't have enough range. When a massive warfleet can jump into a system, and move out of the field of fire of your turret and then just spam fighters at you without sustaining much casualties, you know something is wrong.
2 - Turrets don't do enough damage. I understand they are not meant for anti-fighter duties, but when the fleet warped in, they were in range of maybe 5 of my turrets, and my immediate reaction was to order all that were in range(and more via click-drag) to open up on the first cap ship I saw. It sustained a fair amount of damage(about 1/3 of its total health) but it was very soon out of range. I wouldn't have minded too much if I had destroyed it, or at least got it down into the red).
3 - Using fighters to fight fighters and bombers doesn't work. Hanger defenses cost too many logistics points for what they do. I had 6 fighter wings and 4 bomber wings. The bombers were gone first as they attempted to go up against the fleet, while the 6 fighter wings faired a bit better against their fighters, did some damage I'm sure, but then dissapeared as I was easily outnumbered by at least 4 or 5 to 1 (fighters).
4 - Planets for whatever reason don't have any on-surface defenses. Now this one doesn't make sense to me, you would think there would be some sort of defense shield around the planet, and maybe some anti-orbital lasers... nope, none whatsoever. First space-based sci-fi story that I've heard of where this isn't the case.
5 - There isn't an anti-fighter/bomber turret that you can anchor in orbit around your planets.
And I probably realized a few other things, regardless, here is my solution to the problem:

1. Turrets - Increase cost by 1 logistic point, double range, triple damage.
2. Anti-Air Turrets - One logistic point, current defense turrets range, decent amount of damage.
3. Increase number of flights or squads or whatever you want to call them that the Hangar defenses generate(I'd say allow them 3, but 4 might make more sense).
4. Allow the construction of anti-orbital defense lasers and planetary shields under the planetary improvements thing. It doesn't need to be awesome, but it should be good enough to make bombardments take longer/be a lot harder.
5. Allow us to "mine" phase lanes, but only those that have your influence lines running across them. Make it so that they do a fair amount of damage to non-friendlies moving through the phase lanes(and they change allegiance if the enemies influence lines overtakes your own), and perhaps add in a new type of counter-mine ship which you can send in advance of your fleet to disarm them(this would take some time naturally), to help slow things down and give you a chance to react.
6. Scalable Fleet Supply - I don't know exactly how this would ideally work, it could go by number of opponents or number of planets or some odd combination of the two, but it should be put in to the game somehow. Ideally, it would scale to the largest allied enemy force(unless you are the largest allied enemy force, then you use your and your teammates combined fleet supply as a benchmark). I.E. if you're playing a 4 player game, and you've taken the lead and are fighting the other 3 back, and they all decide to ally to push you back, you would be facing a force that could be 3 times larger than your own. If you haven't managed to make a big enough dent into them yet, this means they have 3 relatively stable economies with production rates about 3 times your own with a fleet cap about 3 times your own. Basically an impossible to win against situation because A-Your economy is outclassed, B-Your rate of production is outclassed, and C-You're dragged down by their weight of numbers. There is no way to fairly alleviate A and B, but C can be fixed relatively easily.
7. Defense fleets - see above poster...

Just my ideas anyway. I'm still pissed that something like that could happen.
Reply #135 Top
A single planet, no matter how well outfitted, is never going to defeat a main fleet attack, especially one specifically built to fight defenses.

That's just not going to happen. If you're fighting 3v1 FFA, by all possible reason you should -lose-. You wouldn't be complaining about this if it was 3 human players that pawned you, it's just that the AI is smart and knows to attack you when you're down.

Defenses in this game are as limited in effectiveness as they are in any other RTS game- it's simply not possible to defend against a premier offensive attack. You shouldn't expect your defenses to help against a capital ship assault; that's like expecting your defenses in Supcom to defend against experimental units, or what have you. The thing about defenses vs the AI is that they allow you to retake their undefended planets faster than they can take yours. If you have the economy to rebuild conquered worlds quickly, you can cripple your opponents on the other end and then turn around to destroy them after they've exhausted themselves fighting 3-4 border worlds.

Reply #136 Top
That *wasn't* their main fleet though, they jumped a second fleet in right after they had cleared out most of my stuff and started to move on to the next system. The second fleet didn't have quite as many carriers/cap ships, but it was larger from what I could see.

Also, I wasn't expecting 1 planet to hold, I was expecting one planet to thin them down, and the next planet to hold in the event of a main fleet attack, hence the reason why the second planet in line was heavily defended as well. And I didn't have that many planets(IIRC I had 8 planets), losing two planets(one of which was an ice world - the only ice world I had), and then watching them phase into 2 out of the 3 lava world's I had, pretty much meant that I was screwed.

The point of defenses in any RTS is to slow down your opponent long enough for you to come back. The same is true in Supcom(which btw, since you brought up I will make the point that even the Tech 1 defenses have enough range to cover a considerably large sized chunk of the map.). Obviously they aren't very good at doing this job if it only took about 7 or 8 minutes to clear out a single system and move on to the next(and it only took them maybe 3 minutes to take out the planet itself...), especially if it takes almost half that time for a fleet to cross a single gravity well and initiate a phase jump. In this case, I was Vasari, so I probably should have had phase stabilizers or whatever so I could make a large scale jump across the galaxy, but what about the other 2 factions? If they had suffered the same attack and were in the same situation I was in, they would have been just as screwed as I was, and would have been more screwed then I would have been if I had the phase stabilizer.