A question on alliances...and more

1) Yes you can make alliances with any other empire as soon as you research it and as long as your relations with them is close. Oh.. yea the other empire has to have researched alliances too (or you just give it to them as a gift)

hi TLA-Russian

1. the other a.i's can and frequently do make alliances with each other.

If you haven't watched who is allied with you. You might attack an a.i. only to find that an a.i. you are very close to will "relunctantly declare war on you".

If you play evil the a.i's have a tendency not to trust you and might band together to try an eliminate you.

If you are allied with an a.i and they declare war against another race, you have the option to break the alliance, the result being a downgraded in the relationship.


2. Think of paying the tribute as a binding contract. Not paying that tribute could cause irreperable harm to your standing with the a.i's They would never trust you again

Reverse the logic and the a.i has to pay you or no other a.i. will trust them again


hope this helps

rich

If you're at war with someone, what are you paying the tribute for? You're supposedly paying them to not attack you, so if they attack you, you shouldn't have to pay. Easy, simple, and the guy attacking you shouldn't be trusted by the AI, not you for not paying.

Yeah what is up with this one?

I agree. If not paying your tribute after war is declared is considered bad form, then declaring war against an empire after they have payed tribute for peace should be considered even worse, and I really don't see how any race could possibly blame the empire that pays the tribute for cancelling the payments.

I'm hoping this might be one of those things fixed in a patch. 'cuz it doesn't make sense. Of course, you can't get back money already paid... but no new money should be paid. Debts of any kind should cancel when at war, and they shouldn't come back.

Maybe they designed it this way because declaring war on somebody you owed money too would be too easy an out. Suggestion: If you declare war on somebody you owe money too it has a negative effect on all relationships (they suspect you of declaring war just to avoid your debts)

"2. Think of paying the tribute as a binding contract. Not paying that tribute could cause irreperable harm to your standing with the a.i's They would never trust you again

Reverse the logic and the a.i has to pay you or no other a.i. will trust them again"

I think some people misunderstood me (or i just cant get the translation right... :notsure: ), but here is an example:

The Yor declares war on me and starts to kick my butt. I sue for peace and offer to pay him 30bc per turn. He agrees and peace is declared. Since this is a 'binding' contract i cannot get out of this. The next turn the AI declares war on me. Well, you would think those 30bc per turn payments should be declared null and void, but not in this case. The rules of the game (or at least what i heard were the rules) is that you HAVE to continue paying the Yor even when the initial aim of such an agreement was the peace treaty (remember you can do the same to AI). In civ3 they tackled this problem by making such agreements binding for 20 turns and if one of the sides violates its part of the contract (like in this case if the Yor attacks me) then their world wide reputation gets a massive penatly. Next time noone will simply trust them. To me it makes sence. Its not me who wants to declare war to get out of paying the Yor 30bc per turn. Its the Yor who declares war on me since even after he does that i still have to continue paying him 30bc per turn. Is that what you thought i meant?

I am sure every1 has read the latest game Brad played. He gave the Yor one of his planets to sign a peace treaty. But after (i dont know how many turns but i wouldnt say a lot) the Yor destrayed him. So why bother giving a planet only to have your enemy finish you off a few turns later???

BTW thanks for answering my first question. The game look awesome and i really cant wait till the 26th

I see that some people understood what i meant. I just wish Brad would jump in and clear things out.

"Maybe they designed it this way because declaring war on somebody you owed money too would be too easy an out."

I doubt this. If you have to resort to paying tribute I doubt you`d be ready to attack them again any time soon. Tribute is kind of like capitulation in my eyes. I agree with the idea that if war is declared any tribute or debts to that empire should be declared null and void.

I find it very surprising that anyone would think that renigging on the tribute would be the same as violating a contract. Wasn't the contract peace for money? And then didn't the other party violate that contract by declaring war? It sounds to me like the other side has already broken the contract.

What if you do become strong enough? Declare war, break the tribute and beat down the opponent. Make them pay you tribute for peace. Renegotiation, it could be called. Honestly, I just think it makes more sense that tribute stops when you're at war with who you're paying. That way, they're less likely to go to war with you because they want the money.

Maybe there could be a "trust" slider, similar to alignment, that affects how the AIs react to you. There could be options for each long-term contract, and you could choose to end any of thye at any time. If you do, however, other AIs, and not only the one with whom you have an agreement, would trust you less, and be less likely to negotiate with you. If you are paying tribute to someone, and they attack you, you could end the deal without any trust penalty.

I am sure this will be there in the final release, but I'll mention it anyway since it is related to this discussion: I would love to have a screen that outlines each long-term deal so that I know how much longer I have to pay tribute and how much longer I am going to receive it. I need to avoid that one turn when all of my deals expire and I go from making 100000 per turn to losing 100000 per turn!

-Dave

I think there should be a limit like in civ3. For 20 turns you have to pay the tribute and then peace treaty is renegotiated. If any1 breaks the deal before those 20 turns are expired then their reputation gets a massive penaly and other nations (even their allies, good friends etc) are more likely to go to war with them. I know GalCiv isnt Civ3, and i really dont want it to be. In my opinion GalCiv shapes up to be one of the best games ever. I am just worried that people might abuse this thing, beacause remeber you can do the same to AI, i.e. declare war on him and have him continue to pay you the tribute

Totally agree with you Dave

I agree with the idea of setting a turn limit for tribute. This is much the same way it was done in medieval times when one nation beat another. However, I don't think that breaking the tribute agreement should give you a trust penalty with any other civilizations except the one you broke it with(this only counts for tribute agreements, other treaties would be different). As in real life situations, most other nations wouldn't care if you quit paying tribute to a nation, especially if they were rivals with that nation, and since everyone thinks tribute is demeaning, most nations would just consider it an issue of national pride to not want to pay tribute.
Now, trust penalties with the nation you break the tribute agreement with should exist, but not if they declare war on you. In that case, they should almost expect you to cancel the tribute payment and theirfore wouldn't hold it against you. There has to be a way to program these elements into a game.

You have to understand that the tribute feature is also used as a money-for-tech/ships/planets agreement. So if I buy 10 techs for 1000/turn for 20 turns, and I back out after three turns, I have totally ripped them off. That should make the other races much more reluctant to extent credit to me in return for goods.

-Dave

I see what you're saying, but that's not really tribute cause you're buying something and getting something in return. Tribute is when you basically force someone to give you something and it only benefits you. Like ending a war for tribute in money or tech per every 10 turns. Sure you'd suffer a penalty towards the race you were paying tribute to, but why would another civilization care? Buying 10 techs for 100/turns for 20 turns is a contract agreement, not tribute.

I was actually talking only about 'tribute for peace' situation, not 'tribute for goods'. But i do understand your point. What about being able to cancel tribute for peace but not payments for goods? If the nation declares war on you the tribute you paid to that nation for NOT going to war with you should be cancelled. But what about giving planets and technologies and whatever in order to make peace? After the other side gets everything it can off you and signs peace only to have you destroyed the next turn then in my oponion thats an abuse.

I remenber someone talking about this in the previous thread and it has been said that changing this kind of a thing will envolve changing the whole AI value evaluations code. In other words its pretty much like reprograming a significant part of the game

The only way to combat that situation is setting a turn limit. You give them a planet and they must promise to be a peace with you for 50 turns or so. If they break that peace then they suffer greatly in trust penalties with all civilizations.

Yep, thats exactly what i was thinking...

I would consider an act of war against me as a criminal act. I would freeze all of the assets that country had in my country, and terminate all agreements I had with that country (this matches real life at least through WWII, perhaps beyond). If the other ruler wanted to reconsider his/her actions, then I might be willing to renegociate everything, but the old treaties and contracts would not be honored during the conflict.

Also, think of it this way. In order to make payments on a contract, there has to be lines of communication of funds and material. During any armed conflict, such lines are blocked, so how can you pay for the new starships you just got, or get payment for the new starships that are now attacking you?