How're people doing with tech leasing? Still too powerful?

from Stardock Forums
So, played a bit with this strategy, post-Brad's patch. I think it's still too powerful, at least at Normal level. The problem isn't so much that the AI is valuing tech too high (it seems to offer fair prices) it's that it can't say no! The AI would consistently buy any tech for the exact same price any other race would (modulo diplomacy difference), no matter how much money it had in the treasury or what its current expenses were. It makes it a pretty simple manner to keep leases bouncing off of a race until it's bankrupt, effectively halting its production. Meanwhile, you've built up your base and a decent little nest egg. Maybe the AI needs some logic to take its financial situation into account and modulate its prices sharply downward based on its own financial situation. Right now, it's a trade addict, and since tech is a very renewable resource, it's incredibly easy to keep it strung along.

Oh, and for those who'll pop back "cheese tactic" (this means you too, Brad) I beg to differ. The "trade anything" economic system's one of the highlights of the game, and I believe the technologist party is specifically designed for this kind of gameplay with its research bonus and early warning defense system (i.e. sensor bonus). I really shouldn't be expected to know when a civilization is too broke to sell it something, or be sufficiently altruistic to spare it the financial pain.

I'm kind of bummed that something that is (to me) a standard gameplay tactic turns out to be a bit of an exploit. The AI will bounce back later if I don't kill it off during its bankruptcy, but it does plainly retard its production. Are people finding this to be a different story above normal? If so, maybe some of those AI routines should be migrated downward a level or two...I probably can't handle the military AI very well at that level, and would like some economic challenge at the level I can effectively fence the computer at.

~SDC~
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Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
I think this issue will need many careful small dadjustments simply not to exterminate the fun of trading items on the other hand not te useful as a tool to cripple the AI
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree that it is still too powerful, but I think it can be fixed fairly easily. My suggestion is to limit the total amount of cash the AI is willing to trade.
There are two cases of cash trade to consider:

1. $X/month tribute: limit the total monthly tribute to 25% of current production spending (military+social+research). This lets you get more money out of bigger empires, while not crippling any empire's production too much. Smaller empires can pay a smaller amount for a longer time.

To implement this, for each AI keep track of the total amount of tribute/turn (TurnTribute). Set TributeLimit to 0.25. (Possibly the limit could be slightly affected by diplomacy.) When any $X bc/Y months offer is made, reject the offer if (TurnTribute + X) > (production_this_turn * TributeLimit). Note that if the deal is accepted, TurnTribute must be updated immediately (so that you can't get around the limit by selling techs separately).

2. $X bc immediate (0 months): Limit the amount to 1/2 the cash that the AI had at the beginning of the turn.

At the beginning of the turn, save the amount of cash (TurnCash). Reject an immediate $X bc deal if (CurrentCash - X) < (TurnCash/2). The reason for saving the amount at the beginning of the turn is so that you can't get 3/4 of the cash by using two trades. (The player could do another deal next turn, but they will take the risk that the AI might have traded tech or not have the cash.)

If these suggestions are implemented, a player can make a reasonable living from trade without destroying the AI's economy.
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
In my current BRIGHT game, I think it's still a little too powerful, especially with the minor races, from whom I can usually get 2x what I can scrape out of the major races... and x7 this amount (sell to each race) is a lot of money.

~SDC~
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
play on intelligent. if this tactic still works then feel free to complain. it sure doesn't work on genius.

cheers

h
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Intellegient is my next game.... (assuming I win tmy current one, which isn't necessarily a given). :)

~SDC~
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
The AI already takes its treasury and expenses into account btw.

~SDC~
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
Okie. I'll try at higher levels. I'm just afraid I'm going to get smacked down in the military game trying to get a decent economic challenge out of it. The tactic isn't something I'd expect to work so well at a level called "Normal".

~SDC~
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
Though, Brad...I will point out that any given tech would sell for the same price within 1bc/20mos to every race, regardless of whether their treasury was 1bc or 2000bcs. You -sure- that code's working?

~SDC~
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
A little warning. You can make a ton of money selling tech to the AI. However, you should be careful what you are selling them.

Lets say for instance you neighbor the "friendly" Drengin (default evil setting naturally) and you select three or four techs randomly from your list that they do not have, and he offers you a handsome price. You take the money, grinning and feeling a little guilty at how easy that was, but wait! You realise that you gave him 1D Phasing, Corvette Technology, and Energy Channeling (more weapons bonus). You breathe a sigh of relief as you realise that it's okay he spent all of his money on those techs and can't possibly use them against you. So you continue to put the majority of your spending into tech. Then it happens, the Drengin go nuts declaring war on everyone perhaps even you! Suddenly they have a ton of really tough warships, and some familiar looking corvettes, DOH! They spent all of their money! you think to yourself, how can they be going to war? Then you look and see (if you invested in espionage) that he is riding way in debt because he basically bought an entire warfleet. You could do the same, but who will this hurt more, you or him? He basically got you to do all the research for him. If you switch to military spending you will have to neglect something, and thanks to those industrial techs you sold him he is on par with you manufacturing wise.

So you see, it isnt entirely a one sided deal. It is a good way to make money, but there are still consequences that must be considered.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
they're supposed to pay more because they have more money? why would they do that?

cheers

h
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
I wouldn't expect them to pay more, per se. I'd expect them to have a baseline price based on "we can afford it" and for them to otherwise turn it down unless you made it so cheap they couldn't pass it up. IOW, not so much that they'd pay more for having more money, but that you'd have to offer it at a steep discount if they were poor.

~SDC~
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
I wouldn't expect them to pay more, per se. I'd expect them to have a baseline price based on "we can afford it" and for them to otherwise turn it down unless you made it so cheap they couldn't pass it up. IOW, not so much that they'd pay more for having more money, but that you'd have to offer it at a steep discount if they were poor.

~SDC~
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
Spru: sure, there is that ramification. Still, you can make a lot of money researching and licensing semi-harmless techs at the moment.

~SDC~
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
geo:

but having a treasury of 1bc does not necessarily mean they're in financial trouble: they could be making 80bc a turn and easily afford to pay for tech. conversely, at 2000bc they could be haemorrhaging cash.

cheers

h
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
The AI DOES take into account how much cash its got when evaluating a proposal. I have tested it out and it works. :)
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
hrm. OK. Well, I can say with relative confidence that that wasn't true at Normal AI difficulty. I'll try it at a higher level.

~SDC~
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
I know at Bright it appears to be working.

Although I bankrupted two minor empires temporarily this way and the Yor... but that was OK because they apperently chose to stop paying the Drengin their bribes to stay out of war while honoring my tech trade lease. :)
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
Personally, since the patch, the AI tries to rip me off... i dont sell techs anymore :(

~SDC~
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
Heh, nice. :)

I would like to figure out (or if someone wants to just tell me, that's OK too) what happens to tributes/loans when a civ runs out of money. I know that planetary spending is disabled, but I'm unsure as to what happens to loan agreements.

~SDC~
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
Me too,
Personally, since the patch, the AI tries to rip me off... i dont sell techs anymore
:(
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
"play on intelligent. if this tactic still works then feel free to complain. it sure doesn't work on genius."

I've played on Intelligent. It still works. On a small map, I had 400+bc coming in per turn from tech tribute for a little while.

That said, I don't think it's a problem. In order to accomplish that, I had to have a substantial tech lead. I was getting 300+bc/turn from the Carinoids at one point, but that's because I sold them about 15-20 techs at once. In other words, you can run an economy off tech tribute, but you have to sacrifice something else to do it -- i.e. military or social spending. That seems fair to me.

- Ash

~SDC~
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
Again, my problem isn't that I can run my economy off of it. That fails eventually anyways, because of what -is- my problem, that the other races go bankrupt. I know the minors should be cash cows, and I expect that, but I'd expect the majors to be a little more spendthrift.

~SDC~