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Starbase Suggestion:

Starbase Suggestion:

[Sorry if this has been suggested already, but there is no search function on this forum.]

With the exception of resources, allow for the creation of starbases *ONLY* in the orbit of a colonized system.

BENEFITS:

1) Capturing resources would have much greater strategic value;

2) You'd be limited in the number of starbases you could build, which would help limit the 'effects of scale' currently somewhat easily done by building bases ad-naseum;

3) The AI would be much more likely to target these starbases around your system as opposed to 'not seeing' the mega bases tucked in the corner of a sector giving your defenders massive ability to survive wave after wave of attack. This, in turn, would give much more strategic emphasis to defending the space *around* your systems;

4) This would encourage colonizing otherwise 'worthless' systems thereby lending more strategic use of the map;

5) This would encourage building up your fewer starbases to maximum in a number of categories rather than having dedicated culture ones (for example) simply 'culture bombing' other sectors.

6) You could no longer 'push' starbases. You could only put them in a new sector once you've colonized a system there, lending more emphasis to actually using your military/colony ships.

7) This increased focus on colonizing more planets would help address some of the morale challenges of overcrowded planets and give you reason to keep trying to expand throughout the game.

8) Finally, as a potential side benefit, since the starbases would be in orbit of your systems, it would be much quicker to update the starbases with constructor ships (assuming the constructor isn't going to another orbit at some point, as it certainly will with later start-ups). This might help improve the pacing and decrease some of the micro-management associated with nearly endless constructor production and starbase updates.
3,478 views 73 replies
Reply #51 Top
Ah, well that's something at least. If anybody can get the AI to handle starbases as well as a human being can, I imagine it's Brad. ;)
Reply #52 Top
I have changed my tune a little bit on starbases. Coupled with my style of tech trading (I lease tech extremely aggressively) it makes even intelligent AI games pretty easy. The production bonuses of stacked bases make it pretty easy to outstrip the AI militarily, which makes them unwilling to go to war with you. This in turn makes it easy to culture bomb the AI as most of you know.

There are two ways I think this could be dealt with.

1) The best approach, in my opinion is through fixing the AI to handle starbases better.

- Make the AI build and stack starbases in its sectors .. this would solve a lot, right off the bat.
- Make the AI be much more aggresive about going after enemy starbases
- Make planting starbases in enemy owned sectors considered a very hostile action.
- Adjust the AI to notice big stacks of constructors just like a war party.
- Adjust some of the AI players to stave off culture bombs by going to war. Even if they know you are more powerful than they are, they should be willing to fight to prevent culture flipping if they can't prevent it peacfully. I won a game on a large map using culture, even though the drengin where strong and very far away from my civilization. It wasn't feasible to fight them, so I opted to hook them on my movies and hamburgers.

2) If the AI fixes aren't possible, and the AI will never end up building non resource starbases.

- Take away bonus stacking on starbases completely except for culture
- Make culture accumulate much more slowly to prevent culture bombs
- Change upgrades to starbases so they do not build instantly. Each upgrade (based on the bonus it gives) should take x amount of turns to install. The cheap level 1 upgrades can stay quick and easy where as the huge bonuses like 200% culture should take several turns to install. No other upgrades can happen while the starbase is currently installing a module.

Reply #54 Top
I disagree with the massive bonuses you can get. Here's what I posted in another (related) thread:

The way, IMO, that the bonuses should be calculated is across modules across starbases per sector. The bonus to that module is dependent on the number of starbases with that module. The bonus from extra modules is exponentially decayed (say by 50% for each one). In other words, the bonus from a module in a system would be:

SUM (1..m) { (1-r)^m }, where 'm' is the number of modules. Using r=.5 (50%), the theoretical maximum you can get is 200% of the modules bonus (i.e, +10% becomes +20%). At three starbases with the same module, for example, the bonus is 175% (+10% becomes +17.5%).

I'm sure there is an approximation so you don't have to sum, but I can't think of it.

/ds
Reply #55 Top
So far, star bases are fine for me.

I can invest all those constructors trying to improve my ability to build constructors locally, or I can invest all that time into resource mining, improving everything, or I can invest into extending my range to get to a few more worlds the AI hasn't gotten to you or ...

It's all in how LONG you play as well. At least, that is what I'm gathering.

I've seen the AI go star base hunting. It's taught me to make sure that somewhere between #2 to #4 upgrade, that SB gets a good defensive module. Possibly 2, to make sure the AI will not target it.

It all just depends on how what's going on.

I'm seeing the AI set up its star bases for future war.

The main problem the AI has with star bases isn't targeting them. It is deciding to put one down in the first place. Once down, it notices it would be useful to do certain things... like add in attack modules for when it will fight you, etc.

If you are taking that long to finish a game that you have 8 production maxed bases in a sector, whoopsie. But since a world can still only build one item a turn, I don't see the biggie. Your time went into building that. The AI just needs to be 'taught' to do something similar to counter you.

Just my opinion. Ask me in a year or two when I've advanced my play style, and I might think different.

Personally, I'm surprised there aren't population housing modules for SBs, so that they really are just artificial worlds. And research facitilites and what not... Having that would tend to make more players play in different ways.

Hum... If the AI will hunt down SBs it knows it can beat, maybe it just needs to build more scouts and drones to eyeball more of the universe?
Reply #57 Top
Sure looks like one though! It's in disguise but I'm pretty sure it IS a bump ;p
Reply #58 Top
I agree that SB tend to grow in numbers only in the player's territory. Thus AI should build some more.
AI will target starbases, but they seem to prefer targetting resources and then ships. They also don't realize culture SB outside their sectors are dangerous.
The solution for exponential decrease in effectivity seems like a good one.
I think that there is one thing between upkeep cost and star systems that could be done, which is require population for starbases. You would depopulate the planet when building the constructor, and the starbase would have some population and be target to discontent, having an effectivity of (your overall morale) instead of always bringing 100% effectivity. This could also be used to prevent immediately efficient starbases, like a constructor can ship only 100M people but each module requires 500M to be 100% efficient, and you'd have to wait for the population to grow for the starbase to be efficient (unless you can send transports to starbases).
Reply #59 Top
It's been my experience that the AI WILL build starbases (not just on resources) in important sectors.
Example:
I built 3 Culture bomb SBs around a sector that had 3 Torian systems in it. A few turns after, they built 2 SBs within that sector. I don't know if they were adding culture mods to it, and maybe this was just a defensive AI kicking in. Eventually, one of their systems joined me, Torians got pissed, and delared war... even though they were 'close' to my empire.

Another fix might be when culture bombing an empire that you're on good terms with, it shows in the relations screen. Slowly the good relations should start to fail I would think.
Reply #60 Top
I agree with those who say that starbase modules shouldn't stack. Stacking creates a boring undynamic game where you just sit in your sector building more and more starbases.

Even a single starbase loaded up with military modules increases your defensive position significantly (and the AI is too dumb to target it). Building several starbases with military upgrades gives you a sector the enemy cannot take over... yet the enemy civs are too stupid to realize this and just keep throwing ships at you.

(Actually, the enemy did destroy one of my starbases last night. I was too stupid to defend it properly. Make sure you defend your starbases with Battle Hammers!)
Reply #62 Top
Just thought I'd add here that this and the 'wasted resources' thread are very much interlinked: Many people are putting constructors as their default military build because there is no upkeep on them, and since you'd 'lose' an opportunity otherwise, it becomes a no-brainer to make tons of constuctors and, thereby, starbases.
Reply #63 Top
I'm thinking with the latest patch (stand alone out today?), I'll just impose my own self-restrictions.

Any good ideas on what would be good restrictions to put on myself?

* Starbases on any resources ... of course.
* No more than 2 starbases in a sector, unless there are said resources?

How does that sound? Is this roughly what the AI seems to be doing? I'm happy to not play a cheesy tactic if it means the AI and I are on the same page.

Brad:

What is the AI's starbase build strat? I'd like to limit myself to the same rules. Thanks.
Reply #64 Top
I'd go with: One starbase on a resource, one starbase in a sector *unless* you had two or more resources in that sector.

I'm not sure about the AI's build strat. In my latest game, the Arceans had built several starbases in my colonized sectors, but didn't upgrade most of them past the basic. This is probably due to the fact that I declared war on them and destroyed all of their constructors within sensor range, destroyed the terror Star one sector away from Sol, and destroyed a chunk of their fleet. I think it was trying to build up terror stars.

~SDC~
Reply #65 Top
Self-limitation, huh?

I'd use the whole '1 SB per colony idea' this includes resources; so if you have 2 possible resources and only 1 colony, wait til you make your 2nd colony before mining the second resource. You can plant them anywhere, no limit on number per sector.
Reply #67 Top
I'm partial to the idea of caps. Some baseline number for each sector, plus one for each colonized system (or even planet) in that sector, plus one for each resource in that sector.

Capping modules or implementing gradual increases to effects complicates gameplay to a certain extent that would not be as intuitively obvious as the above type of cap (and in some cases, perhaps much more difficult to code so that the AI can also take advantage of the deep planning required to account for it, as much as an expert player can).

I'm ambivalent about maintenance. I'd say if there are no caps on how many starbases you can build, than maintenance costs are probably the way to go. If there are caps, then it's probably unnecessary.
Reply #68 Top
I think, if caps were implemented, that I would find the game less satisfying on some level. That is not to say that my tactics rely on massed starbases (I usually build no more than one in any give sector), but it just feels artificial.

~SDC~
Reply #69 Top
How about if the enemy was able to attack specific modules on starbases? I agree that starbases can be way too difficult to destroy - perhaps if as they were damaged, modules were degraded/destroyed. The enemy could also demand that only specific modules were taken off a starbase, instead of objecting to the entire thing. This would obviously require a high level of AI but if there's a game that already has that, it's Galciv!

In terms of limiting starbase proliferation, I think the simplest way would be purely to charge for maintenance. The silliest thing about seeing a sector full of starbases is wondering how on earth they can all be supported by the civilization.

A quick suggestion for a new module - some sort of spying module which increases espionage in that sector (possibly also adjacent sectors) and gives you a unique insight into the enemy that standard espionage cannot. Perhaps even a destabilise module?

Cheers

~SDC~
Reply #70 Top
See, I wouldn't argue with reasonable maintenance.

~SDC~
Reply #71 Top
These are excellent suggestions that would improve the strategic quality of the game immensely, allowing a relatively simple AI algorithm to attack starbases, while reducing the excesses of culture-bombing and ICS at the same time. I would add that a small starbase maintenance charge would help. Brad: take them seriously if you want to improve this game significantly!
Reply #72 Top
Humm... we aren't playing against other humans, so...

How does limiting your starbases improve your fun?

I'm not picking on anyone. I am just curious how you see your suggestions working to improve your fun? What is wrong with starbases now that make GalCiv less fun for you to play?
Reply #73 Top
IMHO, starbases make the game to easy. Its simple to have a "super producing" sector in your empire which bulids galactic wonders in 2-3 turns, throw out constructors every turn etc..
O.K. on the one hand you could say don´t use these tacticts if they are to easy( cheesy). On the other hand the "abuse" of starbases is the most effective tactic at the moment, it is not a bug, for me its simple an game unbalacing feature which should be adressed. The AI in this game is good enough that the player shouldn´t be forced to limit his gameplay to give the AI a real chance...