Xenoreligious Thought Mod: input requested!

The Achievements associated with the religion mod:

//------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPROVEMENT Ubiquorate
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name "Office of the Ubiquorate"
Model "TirQuanTraining"
Manufacturing_Bonus 0 //Manufacturing Bonus
Morale_Bonus 20 //Morale Bonus
Economic_Bonus 0 //Economic Bonus
Prestige_Bonus 50 //Prestige bonus
Planetary_Defense_Bonus 0 //Planetary Defense Bonus
Starship_Quality_Bonus 0 //Starship quality bonus
Research_Improvement_Bonus 0 //Research Improvement bonus
Type "Achievement"
Description "The home of the Ubiquorate, the human-led Inquisition that crusades to convert by force all races."
Tech_Requirement ""
AbilityType 9
AbilityAmount 10
Tech_Requirement_ID 152
ID 11
Cost 400 //Cost
Maintenance 0
ENDIMPROVEMENT

//------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPROVEMENT Cathedral
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name "Pan-Species Cathedral"
Model "TirQuanTraining"
Manufacturing_Bonus 0 //Manufacturing Bonus
Morale_Bonus 20 //Morale Bonus
Economic_Bonus 0 //Economic Bonus
Prestige_Bonus 50 //Prestige bonus
Planetary_Defense_Bonus 0 //Planetary Defense Bonus
Starship_Quality_Bonus 0 //Starship quality bonus
Research_Improvement_Bonus 0 //Research Improvement bonus
Type "Achievement"
Description "The center of new religious thought in the galaxy. Philosophers and priests of all races seek harmony for all."
Tech_Requirement ""
AbilityType 9
AbilityAmount 10
Tech_Requirement_ID 153
ID 12
Cost 400 //Cost
Maintenance 0
ENDIMPROVEMENT

M

Good idea: Religion is strangely missing from the game.
Some suggestions: May be you can start the branch earlier to let people role playing crusaders from the start.
I understand why you chose to associate Euchumenic behavior with Good and Crusade to Evil (there is no other way to create mutually exclusive branches) but seeing how the "Saintly" Altarians usually behave, you can't help thinking about them as bloody crusaders.
May you could also create a new type of ship: the "Suicide Ship", cheap to build, no maintenance, low attack than explode after usage (like Anti-matter Missiles) to simulate kamikaze (for the "evil" side only of course)
I also think that the Cathedral should a standard improvement (that can be built on all planets) with local moral bonuses.
You can rename the civilization improvement to something more grandiose...

Just my 2 cents

Herve

~SDC~

"I also think that the Cathedral should a standard improvement (that can be built on all planets) with local moral bonuses."

Hmm, if I did that, I would have to do the same for the Inquisition.

Also, I am fast realizing that the research costs for the higher techs are very low. I am trying to think of a better number for it.

Here's some ideas for improvements then:

Pan-Species Cathedral/Ubiquorate Temple
- small morale bonus

Wonder: Unity Cathedral/Office of the Ubiquorate
- as above.

As for ships, I am thinking of adding a "Crusader" class of vessel. Unsure of it's details as I am still playing with the .ship files.

M

Jihad! Death to the Unbelievers!

Everyone fears the Inquisition!

~SDC~

*cries*

Not only did I do this mod already (and it's been available for over a week on the usenet groups), but I called it the exact same thing...

Noo! Neale! I'm sorry...I had no idea, really. Let's compare notes then, I would like you to post yours here.

I haven't submitted this to the library, so I will be happy to defer to you in this mod idea.

Now I feel bad.

M
(Did you really name it the same thing?)

//------------------------------------------------------------------------
TECH 600 Xenotheology
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name "Xenotheology"
Model ""
Tech_Requirement "UniversalTranslator"
Research_Cost 100
Description "The power of religion can raise morale amongst the faithful of our people."
Overview "Though some scientists have condemned the belief in religion in this modern age, a wise leader knows that the spreading of faith can improve our people's spirtual well-being, and therefore their morale. Allowing religion to spread through the stars will greatly improve the happiness of the faithful."
Tech_Category 4
Ability "Morale"
Alignment_Category 60
ENDTECH

//------------------------------------------------------------------------
TECH 601 Xenovangelism
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name "Xenovangelism"
Model ""
Tech_Requirement "Xenotheology"
Research_Cost 500
Description "The faithful of our people want to spread the divine word to other cultures."
Overview "For many of the faithful, part of their calling is to spread the word to the rest of the galaxy. With this type of evangelism, our empire also benefits with more prestige among the converted."
Tech_Category 4
Ability "Influence"
Alignment_Category 70
ENDTECH

//------------------------------------------------------------------------
TECH 602 Xenlightenment
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name "Xenlightenment"
Model ""
Tech_Requirement "Xenovangelism"
Research_Cost 2500
Description "With the ultimate display of our empire's piety, we can create a landmark to gather the faithful."
Overview "The primary religion of our empire has grown into a true force. With this level of enlightnment, our faithful can celebreate their piety proudly and enjoy a great inner sense of peace ."
Tech_Category 4
Ability "Morale"
Alignment_Category 80
ENDTECH


//------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPROVEMENT GalacticChurch
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name "Galactic Church"
Model "NewsNetwork"
Description "The structure of faith will give the people a modest boost to their overall happiness."
Manufacturing_Bonus 0
Morale_Bonus 5
Economic_Bonus 0
Prestige_Bonus 5
Planetary_Quality_Bonus 0
Starship_Quality_Bonus 0
Research_Improvement_Bonus 0
Type "Normal"
Tech_Requirement "Xenotheology"
Tech_Requirement_ID 600
Cost 50
Maintenance 1
AI 20
ENDIMPROVEMENT

//------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPROVEMENT GalacticCathedral
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name "Galactic Cathedral"
Model "EconomicCapital"
Description "The cathedral is a grand structure dedicated to the faith. Followers around the galaxy will look to this structure as a standing monument to their piety."
Manufacturing_Bonus 0
Morale_Bonus 35
Economic_Bonus 0
Prestige_Bonus 35
Planetary_Quality_Bonus 0
Starship_Quality_Bonus 0
Research_Improvement_Bonus 0
Type "Wonder"
Tech_Requirement "Xenlightenment"
Tech_Requirement_ID 602
AbilityType 4 //morale
AbilityAmount 25
ID 60
Cost 800
Maintenance 0
ENDIMPROVEMENT

//------------------------------------------------------------------------
SBMOD 56 MissionaryCenter
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name "Missionary Center"
Model "Starbase01"
Tech_Requirement "Xenovangelism"
Module_Requirement "RelationsCenter"
Description "Many of the faithful feel the desire to spread their religion into the stars. This missionary center allows them to preach from deep space installations."
LocalAbility "Culture"
LocalAbilityValue 20
ModuleSize 1
Type 3
ENDSBMOD

Okay, mine's posted. Don't worry, just found it funny that 'XenoReligion' got used twice. You're seems to be a lot more powerful, but doesn't give the starbase module bonus.

It's very interesting. I'm looking it over tonight in a game.

M

Suicide Kamikazes should be for everyone.

Suicide Bombers aren't EVIL they simply are devout
Kamikaze Pilots aren't EVIL they simply are Patriotic

I'm not praising Terrorists, but to say anyone who would sacrifice themselves to further a cause is evil is totally unfair. You condemn heroes and Rebels, who would sacrifice themselves for good causes.

In conclusion Suicide troops are only as evil as the cause they repersent.

Suicide bombing is evil... telling your people to fruitlessly commit suicide to prove your own greatness is decidedly evil.

No one says your TELLING them to, Maybe just suggesting. Maybe they're doing it out of their own initiative.

Remember in Independence Day (the movie) The guy flew his plane into the ship sacrificing, commiting suicide, to save Humanity. Was he evil?
Before you say "He didn't have a bomb" He had jet fuel and one jammed missile.

~SDC~

Spontaneous act of self-sacrifice in order to save one's compatriots = GOOD

State organized programs designed to promote and nurture a culture of suicide bombers = EVIL

The first is the individual's choice. The few (or the one in this case) acts in the best interest of the many. This is selflessness, a hallmark of Good.

The second is the choice of the few in power, so desperate to stay in power that they no longer act in the best interests of the many. They act in the best interests of the few (themselves). The mark of EVIL is selfishness.

Just my opinion, of course.

Who says those with bombs on their persons aren't acting selflessly? If their cause is a governing body of their people that is so desperate to allow its citizens to sacrifice themselves to save it's own hide. Must mean that somone is exploiting that gov't some how.. maybe economically, maybe militarily, maybe through propaganda?

Maybe the gov't has a program where they will supply any willing citizen with the arms they need to carry out the operation.

Allow gov'ts to topple or Toppling Gov'ts where ever they are is not a healthy choice for world/regional/galactic stability and in the long run does more harm then good. So if stability is good then somone who'se willing to preserve that stability and their gov't is acting selflessly for the good of the many. When it comes down to it Heroism and Suicide are much the same, except one we applaud, and the other we only sometimes applaud.

~SDC~

If you are queueing up "Suicide Bomber" units, it's a state sponsored program, pure and simple. This is Evil. You can make as many as you want, ergo you are ordering/coercing/brainwashing people into dying for you. Some might do it out of the desire to serve the greater good, but the mere fact that you can create as little or as many as you want points out that the selfish Few hold power over the hapless Many.

If you are gifted random "Suicide Bomber" units as your defenses crumble, I'm willing to concede the moral grey area and call the use of such units pragmatic, neither Good nor Evil. Heck, since pragmatism is a hallmark of Neutrality, I'd declare it a Neutral stance.

What about Conscripts? You basically telling them to die. Ordering them to go up against "Experinced" forces. (Because you're desperate enough to use citizens in battle, ala the French Revolution) The difference is Conscript soldiers (much like Joe Infantry from GalCiv)is not much difference (Like when I throw billions upon billions of soldiers at my enemy to take his strongholds) just the equipment (if we're going by your scenario of evil because the gov't sponsered suidcide troops)and the fact death isn't guarenteed in a conscription.. if it was Levee on Masse wouldn't be to effective would it?

~SDC~

Just so you know, I bear no grudge (Even though I didn't cede some of my grounds ) against you for this spirited resistance, I'm just trying to get the "fairest" grounds for everything

~SDC~

Seems to me that you have ceded some grounds, by changing the subject to "Conscripts", an entirely different animal.

I bear no grudge either, and am willing to keep an open mind about things.

There is inherent Evil in conscription as well, as you are depriving the individual of choice for the ends of the State. You are far better off with an all volunteer force. But it's less Evil than suicide bombers, as conscripts aren't guaranteed to die.

I disagree with your contention that "you are basically telling them to die". It's all in how they are used. If you institute the draft, but provide adequate training, equipment, and leadership, this is not so Evil. To use them in the way you describe, as "cannon fodder", would be Evil.

Recruiting soldiers in game is abstracted, so I contend you can not enter the process as evidence of moral equivalency in-game (which is what I believe you are trying to do by tying Suicide Bombers to Conscription). The entire process is illogical, from loading anywhere from 1 to 5 Billion soldiers onto *one* transport, shipping them off to fight *the entire tax paying population of the invaded system*, then granting the land rights to the surviving soldiers on your side. I'm sorry, but to draw any conclusions about Good or Evil out of such a warped starting premise is a waste of time. It's a game, this is an abstraction, there is no Good or Evil in this ground combat system.

Queueing up Suicide Bomber units remains Evil in my book. Can we agree on this point?

Your serve.

Heh. Nice shooting. But I looked at the conscripting the entire tax paying population into the army as .. well, I don't like using the words good and evil because too often whats "good" is what's convient.

But yes, For most cases training queues of Suiciders is "Evil" in the GalCiv sense of Evil (Again, I don't like using evil, another reason for that "Evil" tends to also mean "Not Nice") but it could also be the previous stated neutral for maybe you have millions of citizens willing to die but not enough ships full of explosives.

On the Switch to Conscripts: It was a general tactic to impose your standard of suicide bombers to other "sacrificers" as was my whole argument thus far.

Good show, I won't respond til tommorrow, but rather good show.

~SDC~

Thanks for the discussion.

You are right, that the definitions of Good and Evil in GalCiv are very pat and simplistic.

But even this simplified ethos system is an interesting game mechanic not usually seen in TBS games. RPGs yes, but not TBS.

I've got to get back to work on my Writer, and I owe you an install package too, don't I?

Waoh !
It seems that my original comment had started a huge philosophical debat ! (good...)
Anyway, I've put "evil" in quotes due to my prior statement
"I understand why you chose to associate Euchumenic behavior with Good and Crusade to Evil (there is no other way to create mutually exclusive branches) but seeing how the "Saintly" Altarians usually behave, you can't help thinking about them as bloody crusaders."

Malleus clearly wanted to have mutually exclusive path and currently, I don't see any thing except the Morale to achieve that. In fact, this trick is not even perfect as you can acquire technologies from trade or you can change your morale through events.
Ideally we would have a way to create "points of no return" (Exlude_Tech_id keyword) but the cost to implement is probably too high.

Herve

~SDC~

Viandox,

I agree with you on the "points of no-return issue." The mod as I designed it (the one without the input of the _original_ creator of the idea, Neale Davidson) is not working as intended. The Really Good(tm) Torians have the Ubiquorate up (hehe) and the Really Neutral(tm) Arceans built the cathedral. Now, the only way they could do this is to have traded for the techs needed. I am uncertain how to proceed so the AIs won't do this, but I feel perhaps lengthening the tech tree into a longer branch will allow the player to rush there if desired, but won't allow the AI to pick it up along with everything else quite so easily.

M