The Number One AI Deficiency

from Stardock Forums
What do you think the number one AI deficiency is?

I think it's the fact WEAKER AI CIVS DON'T COOPERATE AGAINST STRONGER AI CIVS.

Weak AI civs don't seem to take the initiative to find allies against stronger civs, whether the stronger civ is the human player or AI.

Sometimes the Torian and Altarians ally in the late game, but they still don't cooperate that I can see other then declare war at almost the same time. Even if I am aligned good, the Torian and Altarians don't come to me and say "Hey, the Dregin have taken over half the galaxy, let's ally and declare war on them."

AI civs will whine to me about how so and so civ is getting too strong, but they don't offer to aid in taking them down.

In 90% of games one civ starts out strong (usually the Drengin) and the other civs can't compete against it (unless I dump a few dozen ships and all my tech on them constantly).

On the other hand, I can see that if AI civs did this, it could possibly make the game too easy for the human player. Alliance victory might be too easy if AI's sought at alliances. But in this respect the AI definetly does not play like a human player would because a weak AI civ is doomed unless I choose to seek alliance with them.
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Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
I find that the good civs do go to war together quite readily against an evil civ. The dregnin do tend to be more powerful in the long run, but it doesn't seem to be a big problem in my games.
The thing that usually happens to me is that the Arceans manage to get very powerful because they just build up while the good/evil civs are at war. Then once the Arceans are powerful enough, they wreak havoc on the universe. This has happened in most of my games actually.
So while I don't agree with you that the good civs don't fight together vs. the Dregnin, I do agree that the AI should in general do a better threat assessment of the other AIs and the human player.
Right now in a game with all Bright AIs, I am by far the most powerful and yet I have a friendly status with everyone except the Arceans (who I had to beat down when they got cocky). Combined, the AIs could do some damage to me, but I'm confident that I will be able to remove them one by one to an easy victory.
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
To 1) make the AI behave more like a human player would, and 2) aid in games where one AI civ has grown crazy powerful, I propose:

When one AI civ has become very powerful, the weak AI civs should become desparate and start seeking alliance with the other weak civs and the human player, even if they would not ally with them under normal circumstances. This is normal human player behavior, and helps offset an AI who by random chance ended up in a prime spot with a bucket load of high class planets and resources.

When/if the situation changes, and one AI civ is not inordinately powerful, the AI would reconsider and break alliances especially with those with a different allignment.

The AI civs should do the same when the human player has become very powerful as well.
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Ryan Clifton:

Do you find that ANYTIME your civ does not have the most powerful military, the civ who has a stronger military gets cocky? I do. It makes sense, but sometimes gets silly. Even when I am a goody two shoes and I am CLOSE in relations to the Torians, as soon as their miliary rating is higher them mine, relations tank. And on the opposite side, I find as long as I keep my military the strongest no civ evey declares war on me. Going back to me original post, why don't a couple of the weaker civs team up on me?
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
To some extent I've seen this, but not always. Whenever I have played strictly 'good' and I am at war with an evil civ, the other good civs do tend to come to my aid. I've received free ships from the more powerful Torians and Altarans several times. If you are neutral or especially evil however, all bets are off.

I think the AI is on the right track here, it just needs to be stepped up a bit. The AI needs to understand danger more quickly and react to it faster. Admittedly, I'm still not playing on 'Intelligent', but given the total lack of combined forces on 'Bright', I'm not hoping for much.

I think the much maligned Civ 3 AI was better at this actually. Civ 3 did a very good job of building alliances between the races. Once you get the 'Nationalism' tech and true alliances are an option, the game becomes very interesting. It often reminds me of WWI where one attack can set off a chain reaction where the entire map is suddenly forced into war because of an alliance. The races really showed a sense of self preservation in their choice of alliances also.
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
Of all the problems with the AI, this is the least of them.

On this website somewhere, the creators of the game explain why GalCiv is not like other games. The AI doesn't gang up on another civ that's too strong because they are chicken.

The goal was to prevent what happens in other strategy games where everyone, even your longtime friends, start attacking you when you get too strong.

The problem with the AI is that it's such a stupid military strategist. And that it doesn't know what to do with Starbases except to use them to mine resources.
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Heh.. thanks for your intelligent, informative, thought-out post 'The Leader'. While military AI is a problem, it's definitely not the only one. Once it is fixed, presumably all of the AIs will be better at military strategy. This gives a net zero effect to assessing their place in the universe.

Threat assessment logic still needs to be addressed and made more intelligent. In fact, better threat assessment logic would be a partial fix to the military problem. If the AIs correctly assess that the human or another AI is beating them up, they will seek an alliance to reverse the tide.
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
In playing a few games, I really haven't noticed anything wrong with this part of the AI.

In every game I've played, one race, either the Drengin or the Arceans, get really strong and attack me. The Yor and the Altarians often tell me that they are coming to my aid. They even give me some ships to help fight off the enemy. Sometimes the Yor come to my aid too (who says those guys are evil?).

If the AI were better military strategists, then it would harder for YOU when they attacked, and the goal of improving the AI is to make the game more fun and challenging.
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
The problem is when they get cocky I refuse to play tribute, they declare war thinking they'll win, I use my rangers to outmanuver them and sluaghter like 10-20 of their capital ships. They come for peace so I peace cuase I have better things to do then micro my fleet operations. But they are still stronger than me, or so they believe, so few turn down the line they start pissing me off agian :/ Then they wonder why I hand out genocide like candy on halloween. :notsure:

~SDC~
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
I should clarify that the I do believe the military AI is screwed and too easy. My point is that once it's fixed if we don't address this issue we'll all be complaining about it immediately after the military AI is fixed. This is completely separate from the computer's ability to choose an appropriate way to invade you.
Every civ should always be looking at how best it can survive. If it can ally with another civ (presumably the big civs won't want to because they don't need to), that would further it's ability to survive. Alliances between the computer players seem almost entirely based on alignment right now. This does not necessarily further that AI players cause in the universe.
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
I have to admit I have never had an AI donate me ships, even my allies. I realize this is because I learned early to always have a strong military rating so as to avoid the constant threats and attacks. So when a civ does finally does exceed my military rating, I'm still 2nd place and the other civs likely don't see a reason to help.

The Leader said:
> The AI doesn't gang up on another civ
> that's too strong because they are chicken.

That don't make sense. <-- That ain't good grammer. The AI should be trying to WIN the game. If they don't ally against a strong civ then they are not trying to win.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
The number one deficiency by far, in my opinion, is the AI's passivity,even at "intelligent" level, when faced with culture bombing. It should be out there attacking the threatening starbases on its periphery in a "Bush" type preemptive war instead of quietly awaiting its inevitable demise. If this is not fixed, the game will quickly lose its appeal.
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
"If this is not fixed, the game will quickly lose its appeal. "

OK, so try to win militarily instead of culturally.
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Basically, this issue is part of the diplomatic scheme. And this is where I just abandoned a game because of diplomatic sillyness.

In post #5, The Leader said, "The goal was to prevent what happens in other strategy games where everyone, even your longtime friends, start attacking you when you get too strong.". Well, in the game just abandoned, I was friendly with the Drengins when suddenly they demanded the starbase orbiting Earth and declared war when I naturally refused. So here was a side where my relations had always gone up to the point where they were tagged 'friendly' declaring war on me. The game was promptly exited as being silly. I can take a loss but not sillyness.

All the above IMHO, of course.


~SDC~
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
Boracks,

The Drengin have PERSONALITY. They are a bunch of mean bastards.

Rojonia,

If you try to build a culture starbase in a sector where you don't have any planets, the AI gets mad at you and declared war. There is some smarts built in there!

But you are allowed to get away with whatever you want inside your own sectors.

I think the problem with the starbases is that (1) they stack, meaning you can build infinite starbases in a single sector, all contributing their bonuses; and (2) the AI isn't good at using them for anything except mining resources.

If the AI was smart, and it saw you building culturual starbases in your sector, it would counteract by building it's own cultural starbase in its own sector.

Of course if you have the tech that gives you the Cultural Palace module, and they don't, then they are kind of screwed I suppose.
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
I think the problem here is that every one is assuming that going to war against the leading power is the only option. A far better choice for a mediocre power is to ally _with_ the leader, not against them.

I just finished a game where, up until they lost all their planets to the birth of fundamentalism, the Yor were Close to me. You know, the Terrans, the ones who told the Drengin where they could stuff their threats and beat them into a tasty paste when they wouldn't take no for an answer. Preeminent technological and industrial power. Yadda yadda yadda.

Did they ever bother to request an alliance with me? No. I mean, it's not like they stood a chance by themselves, so they might as well try to get something for all their groveling and unsolicited tribute.
Guarantee themselves a place of power in the new galactic order. Or at least a place higher than 'fuel source'.
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
The positive thing about alliances is the galciv seems to take them much more seriously than games like civ3. It used to annoy me to no end in civ 3 that I would bend over backwards to assist a particular civ for hundreds of years only to have them stab me in the back for no particular reason.

What is the point in maintaining certain diplomatic stances throughout the game if the end game is always the same, ie. the enemy AI's banding together to attack you.

It may not be the most challenging possible model, but it makes sense that races need to have a long history of positive relations to ally.

As far as AI problems go, I would list poor response to culture bombs, military tactics and finally poor use of starbases as the major weaknesses. I have seen plenty of alliances and I have made several, I haven't ever seen the AI work particularly closely through the alliance, coordinated attacks, protecting each others planets etc. But I certainly get gifts of ships from allies and non allies a lot when I am at war with a powerful foe.
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
Thongor said:
> OK, so try to win militarily instead of culturally.

See, that's the thing. I have no interest in military victory. I can't speak for the person you were responding to, just myself. Cultural victory can seem easy only because, again as I have said, the AI players don't seem intent on winning, just existing.
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
Spiner said:
> A far better choice for a mediocre power
> is to ally _with_ the leader

Hey, I agree! I just want the AI to do SOMETHING. Anything but ignoring the problem. Weak AI's trying to ally with the leader is fine by me, and of course it should be somewhat random, the AI shouldn't be making the same choices every game.
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
Boracks: Yeah I agree with 'The Leader'. You lost and you're pissed about it. The Dregnin did to you what I do to the AI all the time. In the end there can be only one.

Spinor: I totally agree with your point, we aren't arguing against each other. What I was saying is that each AI should do whatever is best to ensure it's own ability to win the game. If that means trying to ally with the most powerful civ, that's great. Now whether the most powerful civ wants to ally with them is another question. There just doesn't seem to be enough intelligent self-preservation among the AI players right now.

Brysos: Maybe it's because I love civ3, but I think backstabbing is a strength, not a weakness. I backstab the AI all the time, why shouldn't I have to continually protect against them doing it to me? An alliance has to be mutually beneficial, if one side no longer needs it, they should be able to do anything they want. Including stabbing you in the back.
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
Ryan, I am not pissed about losing; if I was I would stop playing this game because so far, that's all that's happening. No biggie.

I *am* pissed about a diplomatic scheme that has the side you have the best, very positive, relations with turn around and declare war on you for no reason other than you wouldn't let them cripple you by giving up your capital's starbase in a sudden demand. If you have taken the effort to build relations with a side from neutral to warm to friendly then I do *not* expect a sudden, insane, demand followed instantly by war. If I want that I'd play any number of other games (except SMAC). I was hoping for better and it looks like I haven't found it.

We all play our styles, mine tends to be more diplomatic and economic and not bloodthirsty militaristic. I keep hoping for a game where this is a viable option. SMAC is the closest, this game isn't there, yet. (And I mean yet, I hope this can be worked on.)

Again, all IMHO.

~SDC~
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
How about getting the AI to actually coordinate an attack. Instead of sending 1 ship every few turns to die at my planet's defenses. I still haven't seen the AI take one of my defended planets. (Note: I am still pretty new, so if anyone has seen this tell me.)

And while the AI is at it, if it sees 3 or 4 of its biggest and baddest get decimated at a particular planet, maybe it should look for a softer target. It seems to be pretty myopic when it comes to a plan. Once the plan is made to attack a particular planet, that's it. Keep doing that until it falls. Seems silly.


~SDC~
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
Badbonez:

I have definetly seen the AI (on Bright) send multiple ships to take out my planet defenses and then send a troop transport to take the planet.

BUT... I don't see the AI working with their ally to do this. Yeah, yeah, I am going to keep beating on this drum.

The strategy to winning this game is simple. Always have the strongest military. You don't need to use it, just have it. As long as your military rating is highest the other civs take no overt actions against you, they don't team against you, they don't try to win. The AI doesn't start trying to win until their own military is stronger then yours.

Silly furry Dregin! If you teamed with the Yor to attack me, you could then turn on the Yor later and win the game. I'll give you a hug anyway (what with the Dregin always wanting to hug even when they are evil).
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
Hmmm...in a game like this, paying for and maintaining a huge military force without using it seems wasteful. If you have the biggest stick, start beating the war drums. Unfortunately that leads to only one victory condition. Sure, you could decide to have the biggest military and not use it, but you know in the back of your mind you could win militarily.

And Augusten, I don't meant to say that it won't eventually show up with a combat transport, they just don't bring one along with the original attack force. Which always gives me time to mount a relief effort to the sieged planet.


~SDC~
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top
Badbonez:

When they took out my planet defenses with a few ships, the transport arrived next turn. One turn delay. Maybe it was a fluke, I don't get into battles much.

> paying for and maintaining a huge military
> force without using it seems wasteful

LOL, yeah I'm sure it does seem wasteful. I simply have NO interest in military victory. So I sit there paying for a huge military and aim for a win with cultural victory. I'm not saying it's easy. At least one civ (usually Dregin of course) is usually on my heals militarily and I have an arms race while also trying to build a bunch of social for influence. However, again, I found it's actually the easiest course to victory because as long as my military is stronger they all sit back and do nothing.
Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top
"The problem with the AI is that it's such a stupid military strategist. And that it doesn't know what to do with Starbases except to use them to mine resources."

In a recent game on normal, the Yor had *massive* production from two planets in a single sector. When I got around to taking it out, I had to kill the two maxed out production starbases first, because they also maxed military. Neither was on a resource.

Augesten: In my experience, if you have to spend more than a year in an arm's race with another civ, it's just better to break them or utterly wipe them out so they'll never ever be a threat again. :)

~SDC~