Draginol: I was with ya until here:

I think Jill is right, guys who come home from work and split up all the chores are p-whipped.

My husband likes to give me a break . . . it is a way for him to show affection and show that he cares. I spend soooo much time with the kids and so when my husband comes home from work, he will take them off my hands by playing or otherwise engaging them or giving them a bath, or just taking them with him to go pick up a movie. (When he's not deployed) he takes out the trash, takes care of the yard, and issues with the minivan. If I look exhausted and the carpet needs vacuuming, he does it.

I take my job as general manager of the family (like my title?) very seriously, but I welcome his willingness to sacrifice a bit of the free time he has to make my life a little bit easier. I am not contending that the arrangement you and your wife have or the one that Jill and her husband have is wrong . . . considering your (and Jill's husband's) hours, I think your arrangement is a wonderful way to make what family time that is available stress free and enjoyable.

What I am saying is that my man comes home from work with my best interests in mind . . . I don't call that p-whipped . . . I call it love.

Texas, your situation isn't "splitting all of the chores".  Your husband taking the kids off your hands or doing a few things here and there to give you a break makes sense and I don't think that was what Draginol was talking about and I know it wasn't what I was referring to.  What I am talking about is when a man works a grueling 8hr day, has traffic on top of that, the wife works at her own pace and spends some of the day on leisure, then the man comes home and starts doing half of the stuff around the house.  I see that as p-whipped.

I think women's lib has gone to an extreme.  So many men now go over board with what they think they should do to "help out".  If both work full time, they should split the work at home evenly.  If they don't, they shouldn't.  I am definitely not saying that a guy shouldn't give his wife a break once in a while.  My husband will take over getting dinner and helping with the kids if I am sick or had a really bad day (as long as he didn't also have a really bad day).

Texas, you describe a loving team.  I bet that if your husband comes home looking exhausted or stressed out, you don't just unload the kids on him.  However, if you do unload the kids on him when you aren't stressed out and he is and you just feel he owes you a break, that is a problem.  I get the impression you are talking about mutual respect and care for your family.  That is what I have at my home but people seem to think I am a door mat and my husband just "has it made".  These same people who judge me this way constantly bicker about who does more around their house.  I don't see them as a good source to judge

I definately agree that you're not a doormat. As far as "splitting the chores", we've done that off and on in different situations to varying degrees of success and failure. For the majority of the time we've been married, we have either both worked or both been in school. During those times, we both worked around the house as well. In fact, my husband has probably done more work around the house than I have, even during the times that I wasn't working.

Reason #1--He is more domestic than I am, and he enjoys doing things around the house. I did not learn how to do many "domestic" type things when I was growing up. We have talked several times over the years about him being a stay at home parent (when we have children, and when he is no longer in the military).
Reason #2-- As a housewife, I have been pretty pathetic. For years I struggled with depression, and when I was in the talons of the icy beast, or in the midst of panic attacks, I was incapable of doing much of anything. This does not mean that I was right, or that I was lazy. It's not that I didn't do things merely because I didn't feel like it, but because I could not make myself do anything--getting out of bed was an accomplishment! My husband was willing and able to step in and take over many of the tasks I should have been doing. Not too many men would have stayed through everything he's been through, but he is a real MAN, and he is NOT whipped or a doormat, although at times I'm sure even he has felt that way.

I can understand the sentiment that WHICHEVER partner in a relationship does everything is a doormat, but things are not always what they seem to the outside observer and sometimes there are reasons.

Just my two cents...

LadyCleve, good point but I think if one partner is truly doing "everything" for too long, the relationship will eventually fail.  I have been witness to this situation on a few occasions.  It does, however, depend on the individuals involved and their own circumstances but if one partner percieves it as having to do all of the work, there is bound to be resentment at some point.  We had neighbors a few years back who ended up divorcing because the wife was so depressed all of the time that she considered it a major achievement to get out of bed and get dressed (like you mentioned).  The problem with that came after a year or two.  Her husband finally couldn't take being the soul income earner and caregiver for the entire family (they have two children).  They divorced, he got the kids, they split their assets and hopefully she is seeking help.

Do you think your husband would be happy with that situation for long?  I can understand it being a short term solution but not a long term one.  I would be happy with my current arrangement for whatever amount of time needed.  I know my husband feels the same way.  The important thing though is that you are honest with yourself and with your partner about what you need in order to be happy.  Every family has to make compromises and every family has different challenges that require unique solutions.

 

Lady Cleve's husband is SPC nbs and I think it is pretty likely that he meant it when he said, "till death do us part"
Loyalty is not something I think the good lady worries about.
I have done the stay at home dad thing and it is an ass kicker! Before I came back on active duty we managed a
small apt complex, and that was the only work i did for the 3 months to get my clearance issues dealt with.
With a toddler in hand anything other than caring for them is a major evolution. I can cook, I can do laundr....,
But when I had the boys in the evenings after work, when there mom worked evenings; it was often pizza night.
Stay at home parents have a more than full time job and anyone who says different can KMA.

Loyalty works both ways. If I was married to someone who just laid around in bed all day while I worked, came home to take care of the kids and such I would eventually grow to resent that.  I would consider it an exploitation of my loyalty and eventually it would lead to serious martial problems.

 

if one partner is truly doing "everything" for too long, the relationship will eventually fail

I do agree with this statement, and with the sentiments that Draginol expressed. I was not saying that my husband does everything all of the time. In fact, what I said was that

my husband has probably done more work around the house than I have

There have been very few times in our marriage that I did absolutely nothing and my husband did everything. There have been times that he did more than his "fair share", some due to circumstances(which did not last long), some due to choice, but there have also been situations where I did more than my "fair share". I am a firm believer that a marriage is not a 50/50 partnership. A marriage is something that requires 100% all the time in order to work, and both partners are not capable of providing that all of the time. So, when one person is only able to contribute 40% one day, the other needs to contribute 60% for things to work smoothly. I am not merely talking about physical work, either. I am referring to the emotional and spiritual aspects of the relationship as well.

It does, however, depend on the individuals involved and their own circumstances

Thank you, Jill, for that statement. Each family does have its own circumstances, and the individuals involved have their own way of dealing with things. I'm not trying to imply that our situation was good, or that others should be able to do exactly what we have done. I do not in any way, shape, or form purport to be an expert when it comes to marriage, but we have worked hard to get where we are and have the relationship that we have, flawed as it is. We have worked through many serious marital problems, and there will be many more in the future.

I would eventually grow to resent that.

I believe that most people would, it's understandable, and at times both myself and my husband have resented each other for situations that have happened. This is normal, even in a healthy relationship, and as long as you are willing to communicate and work through things with each other, it can remain a healthy relationship. As I said,

Not too many men would have stayed through everything he's been through

and I'm not just referring to the topic at hand. I admit that at times I have been wrong, very wrong, and I don't deserve to still have what I have, but through the grace of God, and the loyalty of my husband, I do. I am a blessed woman.

Jill--I apologize for taking up so much room on your thread, but I felt I needed to clarify what I stated earlier. I admire you greatly for being a housewife, I admire anyone who chooses to remain at home and raise their children, whether it be mom or dad.

and Geezer.....thank you.....sometimes it's nice to hear that from someone else.

Stay at home parents have a more than full time job and anyone who says different can KMA.

uh...well..all parents have more than a full time job if you work or not.  If you work, you work outside the house 40+ hours then come home and take care of the kids and home.  If you don't work, you take care of the kids and home. 

Most stay at home parents that I know become very organized and create a routine (no different than working outside the home).  Just like working outside the home, if you are not organized your work will seem harder than it really is.  I have been both a stay at home Mom and work full time.  Staying at home is not harder than working full time (that's not to say that it is necessarily easier), but it is less stressful.

Staying at home is not harder than working full time (that's not to say that it is necessarily easier), but it is less stressful.

I think we are all getting into trouble by making too general of statements.  Karma, you simply can't state that staying at home is not harder than working full time or is less stressful because it all depends on the individual's challenges.  There are some full time jobs that are far easier than staying at home with children.  And some people have problems with their children or their environment that makes staying at home more stressful.

I think, in general, that staying at home affords you the benefit of not being stressed by the deadlines most experience in work outside the home but that is a trade off for being the one who is responsible for whatever happens whenever it happens (barf-o-rama at 2AM for example).  There is no such thing as an 8hr day for a stay-at-home parent.  The difference is, their down time is usually in increments throughout the day rather than being able to say "phew, glad that day is over" at "quitting time".

LadyCleve, I appreciated your input.  I think as long as you love each other and have mutual respect and communication, you will have no problems you can't over come.  I doubt your husband would stick around if you weren't "worth it".  Sounds like you appreciate him and that is so very important.  Feeling appreciated can make up for a lot of percieved discrepencies.

I think we are all getting into trouble by making too general of statements. Karma, you simply can't state that staying at home is not harder than working full time or is less stressful because it all depends on the individual's challenges.

I am basing that on my experience of doing both (which is
why I mentioned that I did both in the preceding sentence). 
If you work, somebody still has to take care of the child/children once you get
home.  You also have to take care of all the household chores, bill paying
and everything once you get home.  There is no "quitting time" for a
working Mom, either- it's not an 8 hour day.  You still have to deal with
the 2am barf-o-rama then figure out how to get to work in the morning or who
has to stay home.  You simply leave one "job" to go to another.  That
is why I said that it is not harder to stay at home than it is to work. 
Sure, I am sure that you can find some instance where that is not the case, but
from my experience of doing both, I can't say that staying at home is harder
(especially once your kids are in school). Since I stated that I have done
both, I am stating my experience.  The only real stress that I had when I
stayed home was the lack of money (hence why I started working).  However,
while working, I have the stress of actual work stuff (which really isn't were
the stress of working comes from), commuting,  figuring out who will take
the day off with a sick kid, scheduling who will put the kid on the bus and take
her off as well as get her to any other activities, and trying to figure out how
to get all the housework, grocery shopping, bill paying and family time
packed into the few hours a night and on weekends that I have free.  If you
stay home or work, it doesn't matter- being a Mom in general is a 24/7 job.

hmm...I wonder how it got formatted that way   That is very odd.....

I would be happy with my current arrangement for whatever amount of time needed. I know my husband feels the same way.

That comment made me smile. After all her kids left the house, my mom quit. She quit making dinner every night, quit doing all the chores and went out and got a job. She rarely cooks any more and says that she spent a great portion of her life making dinner for five, and that she wasn't going to spend the rest of it only cooking dinner for two. My dad is a fantastic cook, who would have thought? I don't know if any man is pussy-whipped because he comes home and does chores around the house after work. Why? Because my father's way of relaxing, as strange as it may sound is to do chores... cutting the grass, taking the dog out for walks, fixing cars and washing machines... he knows my mom can't do some of that, and wouldn't think to pay someone to do what he obviously could while getting time to think, zone out, yet still be productive. Workaholic? Maybe, but definitely not whipped. And there are many working men who do the exact same thing for the exact same reasons.

KarmaGirl:

commuting, figuring out who will take the day off with a sick kid, scheduling who will put the kid on the bus and take her off as well as get her to any other activities, and trying to figure out how to get all the housework, grocery shopping, bill paying and family time packed into the few hours a night and on weekends that I have free

Those things listed above (add full college schedule to that, as well) were a big factor in my family's decision for me to stay at home with the kids. I spent the first 5 years of our marriage stressed to the point of breakdown. I spent a lot of time freaking out because I couldn't get it all done and I never saw my kids or my husband.

Although I agree with Jill that some stay-at-home parents have extremely difficult and stressful situations at home, my life now is MUCH easier and MUCH less stressful.

I am the laid back type, and I generally (though not always) have plenty of leisure time. I mean, you've seen how much time I spend on JU. My husband wants me to be happy and he likes for me to do things I want to do during the day. Right now my seven year old is at school, my three year old is watching Blues Clues and playing the ukulele and I am drinking a Pepsi One and messing around on the computer. Life is good.

The parent that gets the hands down hardest job in the world is the single parent.  I think we can all agree on that.

When my kids are in school full time, I plan to go back to work at least part time.  I will make sure I am available when they need me and will definitely be home whenever they are (very important point for after school!).  I certainly don't see myself contributing enough by staying at home full time once the kids are gone all day.

Like I said before, all families have unique situations which warrant different solutions.  I feel my husband contributes enormously to our family and that my contributions at home are neccessary for our family to be happy and maximize our time together.  Apparently a lot of people see how difficult it is to work full time as opposed to staying home and therefore really shouldn't see a problem with all of the things I do.  Ironically, it is usually the working parents who are crying loudly about how difficult their lives are that are calling me a doormat.  Their spouse should be "helping" them but I shouldn't be doing so much "for" mine?  I don't get it.

Ironically, it is usually the working parents who are crying loudly about how difficult their lives are that are calling me a doormat.

It's because too many people are "grass is greener on the other side" type people.  If you work outside the home or not, it faces it's own challenges and problems.  People just need to make decisions for themselves and live with it.  If they don't like it, change it, but don't act like somebody else has it "better".  But, I would assume that those people are really just jealous.  They have put themselves in a position that they *have* to work, and with doing that, they are stressed and bitchy all the time.  Nothing anybody can do will make them happy (and that is why they complain about their husbands).   unfortunately, I know too many people like that.  They are usually the stressed out, have to have everything perfect, have to keep up with the Joneses type people.  They burn out quickly, and want to take people along with them.  If they call you a doormat, just ask them how their job is going and if they enjoy the drive....might shut them up.

Just for the record, Karma and anyone else, I was never comparing the difficulty of being a stay-at-home parent to a primary caregiver working full time.  I was comparing one parent who stays at home to the other working full time and the challenges they face in those mutually exclusive rolls.  If I worked full time and was primarily responsible for the kids, I would certainly expect my spouse (also working full time) to do at least half of the house work. 

I think things got confused there, however,  I will stand behind the fact that some women have a much more stressful time at home with their children, especially if they have more than a couple, than they would at any 9-5 job.  We have a cousin that has five children and she could put many business people to shame.  She runs a tight ship on a very tight budget.  Her children are well behaved, nicely groomed and healthy.  BTW, 3 of the 5 are boys!

I personally know quite a few moms who tried to stay at home and couldn't hack it.  They went back to work because they wanted to not because they needed to.  Again, I don't think this is the general case but I do know that it happens. 

They have put themselves in a position that they *have* to work, and with doing that, they are stressed and bitchy all the time.

I think there is a lot of truth in that statement . . . disclaimer here - there are many women who must work in order for the family to have the minimum amount of income necessary to provide for their families and for them there is no choice . . . however, there is a big tendency for many people (myself included) to just assume that other have it so much better. We all make choices and we are responsible for ourselves. I give up having my own vehicle and getting my nails done but I gain quality time with my children, the ability to be with my husband every day off and lunch hour he has even those that show up with little or no notice, and a generally low level of stress in my life.

What the bitter working women fail to realize is that they could have the lifestyle that the are putting down but secretly envy if they were willing to forgo the $4 lattes, the weekly trips to the mall and the movies, and the Ford Focus that they run around in . . .

We all make sacrifices . . . if the sacrifices you are making aren't worth it to you, then change your priorities (this goes for the stay-at-home mom longing to have the paycheck and adult interaction of a career as well)!

If they call you a doormat, just ask them how their job is going and if they enjoy the drive....might shut them up.

I might have to try that!

We all make sacrifices . . . if the sacrifices you are making aren't worth it to you, then change your priorities (this goes for the stay-at-home mom longing to have the paycheck and adult interaction of a career as well)!

Excellent point! 

When my husband and I were first building and home and family together, I felt a little like I was sacrificing my own identity.  I got a degree but never pursued a career.  I helped start our business instead.  It sure was the right decision!  I truly have a great life because I can live comfortably, be there for my family and friends, and have the option of pursuing a career in the future if I so desire.  Not a bad deal!

I do agree that some homemakers have a lot more stress and work than some 9 to 5 jobs. After all, not homemakers are equal and not all 9 to 5 jobs are equal.

To keep things on the topic, I think a lot of the condescension comes purely from people judging others as they judge themselves. There is a natural tendancy for people to think THEIR way is the right way. So someone whose husband helps out around the house (because they both work) doesn't tend to take the fact that you are a full time homemaker into account and hence thinks that you're just some doormat because you take care of all the domestic chores.

I think my wife gets patronized by working women for mainly one thing: Kitchen stuff. I make no secret that I don't cook or do wash. I don't know where the pots and pans are kept. I don't know how to use the oven. And so, seeing that, they think that I'm just walking all over my wife. They don't think "I wonder if Debbie

Pesonally I think that being a wife and mother is the most important job a person could have. Certainly the most demanding. I don't think it's a coincidence that the rise in juvenile crime rates coincides with the increase in mothers working outside the home.

I hold a great deal of respect for any woman who chooses to stay in the home and care for her family over a "career" outside the home. I think she and her husband have their priorities in the right place. It most certainly doesn't make her a "doormat".

I personally know quite a few moms who tried to stay at home and couldn't hack it. They went back to work because they wanted to not because they needed to.

I was a crappy stay-at-home mom, at least, as far as running a tight schedule for housework, chores, and outside activities. Now, while I need to work, I definitely am grateful for the social interaction that I get while working. Being a stay-at-home mom, and single, was a pretty lonely experience. While I knew other single parents, they were all struggling as much as I was just to stay afloat. I think the thing about working mothers, those who worked at a job that pretty much equalled out the payment for daycare, impressed me (and confused me, too) because there didn't seem to be much point, if you were only factoring in financial gain. But there must be some bonuses there, somewhere.

The satisfaction that we get from our lives vary. I've always wanted to be a mother, I saw the silver lining in what was actually a disappointing situation and it was all worth it. But being a mother who loves her family, and being a mother who knows how to run a house effeciently as well is definitely something to brag about. I don't understand the patronizing part, at all.

Pesonally I think that being a wife and mother is the most important job a person could have. Certainly the most demanding. I don't think it's a coincidence that the rise in juvenile crime rates coincides with the increase in mothers working outside the home.

I have to agree with that.  If I didn't have my parents to watch my daughter while I work, I would have to alter my lifestyle to live on only my husband's income.  I think that there are too many children who are falling through the cracks and not getting the attention that they need.  That is not saying that all women who work are neglecting their children, but I do wonder about some of these Mom's who have 3 or 4 children and go back to work and put the baby in daycare after 6 weeks.  I really don't know how they do it, and I'm sure that the cost of daycare is amazing.

The other thing I find interesting about a lot of women who work is that they say that women have to work in this day and age, unlike our parents.  the problem with that is that they *could* live on one income if they wanted to live the way people used to live.  Smaller houses, share a car, or have one nice car and one old one, one TV, no cell phones, basic or no cable, etc.  But, people want to have the big houses, the new cars, go out to eat, etc.  Sometimes I wonder why some of these people have houses and children since they aren't home much and their children end up being almost an inconvenience to them.  It's an odd world out there......

I think that the biggest issue is how to make people see that they can make their decisions on how they live, but that doesn't mean that is the way you want to live.  My neighbor is a stay at home Mom but send one of her children to daycare all day.  Not sure why, but it must work for them because they are still married.  My husband and I work full time and share chores, but we have to (he does laundry....but I have also lost a lot of clothes in the process...you really *can't* wash everything in hot water) and his mother always complains because he has to do too much around the house (she expects me to do it all) but, we are happy, so who cares what she thinks?  My Mom has complained her entire life that my Dad doesn't do anything.....that's *not* how to live....  And, I have an Uncle my marriage that lost his job and now stays home and takes care of everything while his wife is at work, and they are happy.

I would think that the people who think what you do is "wrong" is mainly because they are not happy themselves.  Or, maybe they are just ego maniacs and think there is something special to having a career.  Not sure.  I really don't understand why people care that much about how people run their households.  Hell, if you find something that works, stick with it.  Seems like it's rare in this day to find a happy couple instead of people who are divorced.