Just finished my third game. Please nerf this

I didn't know about the civs still paying tribute once they are dead. That has to be a bug. The whole point of offering tribute is convincing you that they are more valuable to you alive than they are dead.

As for your second issue, you seem to be ignoring the money that civs make each turn. They certainly ought to be able to give a per turn tribute that is larger than their current treasury. It might well cripple their economy to do it, but them's the breaks if you're facing near certain destruction. Of course this does make problem #1 even worse than it might seem, since you can demand a stupendous sum in tribute and then receive it even after your foe is dead.

1) They die, tribute doesn't stop. Instant cheese waiting to happen.

This is a bug. I already reported it in the bugs folder. I hope it gets noticed!

Btw:

Imho tribute should stop when:
- the race paying the tribute dies
- the race receiving the tribute does not respect the treaty it signed. I mean: if the Drengin pay me 20 for 20 turns, and i decide to go to war with them after 5 turns. Tribute payments should stop.

Oh yeah, and while i am at it: the computer AI should be programmed that it wants to give tribute for multiple months when being attacked, and wants tribute at once when attacking.

Brad are you listening??

[just had to post 4 in a row]

They did solve part of it already.
Originally one could ask for a tribute during hundreds or thousands of turns, now it is maxed on 50 turns.

Further it seems to me that the galactic bank guarantees these payments, it is not in their best interest so they should stop it.

On higher level though they have already built defenders before you have (even with 100% research) impulse drive. But minor civs are not so smart

yep cheese..extra creamy. reminds me of the 1 trillion dollar extorrtion bug in civ iii

Tventano... even if it is maxed 50 turns; i think it would greatly improve the game if the tribute would stop if the race dies, or if you (for example) declare war again after signing a peace treaty for which tribute is being paid.

Tribute isn't limited to 50 turns. Just the SLIDER is limited to 50 turns. You can manually enter larger amounts. I often do. I like to have the AI paying me huge sums, split into easy to pay low monthly installments, effectively FOREVER. The AI understand it costs more over time (interests), and therefore is willing to pay for something. You can effectively be 'Mitrosoft' to them for what you are selling.

Tribute USED to stop when the civ was wiped out. I actually had one of my "winning" games ruined because when I lost the tribute from taking races out of the game, I could not afford to keep up with all my leases anymore. I hope they get that fixed.

I also agree you should lose any given tribute when you break the deal that the tribute was being paid for. I might even take it a step farther and say when an empire is at war, it should stop paying ALL tribute formerly going to whom they are now at war with until peace is declared.

Finally, it would be nice if there was a "tribute from this race" type of entry on the race statistic screen, so you could tell at a glance how much of your total tribute is comeing from any given race.

--Soulfire

Soulfire-
Finally, it would be nice if there was a "tribute from this race" type of entry on the race statistic screen, so you could tell at a glance how much of your total tribute is comeing from any given race.

That is an EXCELLENT idea!! Have it work in the same sense that trade does.. when war is declared all tribute stops (perhaps it starts back up once peace occurs).... and it could be another issue as to who the computer will attack.

Okay, so I'm behind a bit in technology. So, I go to the Drengin and trade for some of theirs, as well as some nice ships, maybe a starbase or two. I offer up monthly installments, relatively low payments for a few hundred turns (or whatever). A few turns later, I declare war. The tribute I offered in exchange for the techs, etc. stops.

So, anyway, you want to see more threads titled "please nerf this?" Go for pushing for that particular change.

~SDC~

I don't think people who have only played 3 games on Fool AI levels should be making global comments about what should or shouldn't be nerfed in the game. LOL

The AI plays its best non-cheat game at 'Intelligent', if you find a cheese strategy like that that works at that level then you might have something worth reporting.

Remember that some of the cheesy things that happen at low AI levels no longer happen or are accounted for at higher levels.

"I don't think people who have only played 3 games on Fool AI levels should be making global comments about what should or shouldn't be nerfed in the game."

Well, his first issue is a genuine bug in the game. Money doesn't just appear from ghost civilizations.

The second complaint will be dealt with very shortly as it is a failing in the AI.

The bit about breaking treaties is a misunderstanding of the game mechanics: there is no time involved in a peace/attack treaty. They merely cause one party to cease or start a declaration of war - there is nothing in the treaty that says how long they must obey it and each AI (or you for that matter) will weigh whether or not to honor it long term.

A bit OT, but I just wanted to say that everyone should try rushing in this game at least once. I played a tiny/rare planets/intelegent AI rush game a few days ago, and the game has an entierly diffrent feel. Trying to take as many planets as you can before Defenders come out

Hey, an idea : make ALL tribute from a race STOP when you're at war with them !
That's realistic (I don't think Saddam paid its US debt these last weeks ) , and it'll kill cheese tribute tactics (:( , when you've sold techs and then squeezed cash by threat...

Posted by pdifolco :
> Hey, an idea : make ALL tribute from a race STOP when
> you're at war with them !

That's not an idea, that's a suggestion (that's not going to happen) that's been argued since the beta and is still being argued. Brad believes (and I agree) that being able to cancel tribute with war lends itself to more cheesey tactics than having it continue.

Think of it as tribute is handled by some sort of Galactic Bank escrow system which doesn't see a difference in your obligation to pay 10,000 bc up front or over 20 years -> you made the deal, and the money is coming out of your bank account every month whether you whine about it or not.

We are left with the "abuse" of being able to sue for a lot of goodies to stop attacking someone and then turn around and attack them again, but my opinion is, "so what?" The AI will eventually realise what you're doing and stop negotiating, and more importantly, if you're in a position to keep declaring war willy nilly on some other civ, why shouldn't you be able to behave like a bully if you want?

Um, sorry to resurrect this, but I had to insert here a concern of mine I'm seeing come true lately.

I stated upfront what my experience with the game was. I'm sure that if I had not, Vorin Varelse's response would be the time-honored "Oh yeah? What's your metaverse score?" Needless to say, I find this to be completely unworthy of this community and this game. It's wrong when a guy is commenting on his "feel" of the AI, even if the vets know for a fact the complainer is wrong. It should be substituted with "You're wrong, and here's why." It's ESPECIALLY wrong when in response to a post like mine, which points out not subjective "difficulty" or "sophistication" issues, but simple verifiable bugs. It shows, basically, that the poster of the SIR (Standard Inane Remark) didn't bother to read the post AT ALL, expected it to be about the same old issues based on an admittedly "loaded" but accurate title, and thought "let me post this and enjoy all the agreements I'll get".

I do not need to play on Intelligent to know that if the game doesn't stop tribute on death on Fool, it won't on Intelligent as well. I do not need to play on Intelligent to know that if the AI managed to accumulate 1000 BC in about 50 turns (granted, with purchases and stuff already deducted) and if the diplo screen tells you the maximum you can ask for is 1000, there is *no way* the AI will be able to support a tribute of 1000 over X turns. A caveat is on the second point: I do not really know if the maximum value selectable on the diplo screen *is* the total treasury or a value already subject to a "desirability" function by the AI (like, the maximum this AI will pay is 40% of total treasury), so my second point in the original post needs confirmation. But this does not turn Vorin's reply into a justifiable, polite, or even especially clever message. I'd like this to be used by vets a lot less than it is, or at least I'd like vets to ready the posts they're slapping the SIR on.

Again, sorry about the rant

Astro

Regarding taking the AI for everything it's got: It's harder to do on higher intelligence settings.

Also, while I'd like to see the AI do well in deciding how much its willing to pay, I would hate to see hardcoded limits like "only 40% of its treasury," as this is something that simply can't account for all circumstances (Okay, I've taken the AI down to its last sector, I offer it peace and demand its treasury, all of its techs, and any trade goods its built - it says "No" because I asked for too much of its treasury? That just isn't sensible).

~SDC~

hmm, let me say what would be my preferred solution for this:

The AI takes it entire current treasury plus 500 (the debt limit) and puts it on the maximum value they will pay in the tribute window. Then you increase the wanted tribute to two months. They check what is their current (or expected, for smarter AIs) income for the next turn, add it to their treasury, and divide the value by two. That is the new maximum value they are willing to pay for two months. You change to three, same thing.

Example:

1000 treasury
AI thinks it can earn 10 per turn
1 turn maximum is 1000
2 turns maximum is 1000+10/2=505
3 turns maximum is 1020/3=340
etc.

Remember, I'm not talking about the maximum they will accept, it's the maximum you can ask for. This makes sense in this respect. Then the AI can analize exactly what percentage of that they are willing to give you based on the situation at hand.

Astro

If it's a choice between total annihilation, or a few months in nasty debt, I hope they take the self-interested route. I'd rather not see the AIs suicide to spite me when things are not utterly hopeless.

~SDC~

yes, I give you that. Are you at home? I'd like to see an experiment. Try to *offer* tribute, and see how much of your treasury is your maximum offerable, and try to offer that much for 10 turns. I'd like to know what happens (I'm at work, which is easily seen by my long posts ;))

Okay. I'm posting this *Before* I do this.

~SDC~

I agree that tribute from dead ai is a bug.
I think that extorting money is not. If you don't finish the ai that pays you a lot to survive, then they have an incetnive to do it, so it is OK for me.
The problem is they give all their money for many months. This could be fixed by a user interface change:
Allow the diplomacy to pay 500bc now and then !))bc per month for !@ months for example.
If this was possible, the ai could refuse a deal of 500 for 12 months but accept one of 500 now and 100 for 60+ months, if it knew it can make about 100+ income per turn.
The problem with the current ai is that if they have 2000bc cash and 10bc revenue, you cannot extort 4000bc realistically (2500 now + 9 per turn or other combo which lets them not be broke).

So I propose fix the UI first, then code the AI to take care of it.