Hey listen I never said I was unappreciative. I have been spreading the Galactic Civilization gospel ever since I got the game.

The quality of the game and the support has been superb. That being said I don't see how removing options from a game that can be de-selected at any time by any person helps to INCREASE the user base, instead it makes it more selective.

You don't see Ensemble removing "cheat" codes from the Age of series because it makes the game too easy. There were maps that I needed to use some just to further the campaign otherwise I would said the heck with it and stopped playing.

For some of us this isn't our life just our entertainment instead of watching the tube. Something we do over beer and pretzels as it were. I don't want to break a sweat and if I start losing I make a new game anyway. That doesn't say there shouldn't be a way to set the options that only the best players can win but there can be a place for both in this universe.

Toaddog:

I think you are far too optimistic regarding human behavior if you believe people will opt to ignore the +15% PQ choice without some arm twisting. Why don't we look at this problem from the reverse perspective. With GalCiv being so moddable, I'm sure you can find some way to to re-insert that 15% PQ bonus any time you want

Toaddog, I agree with you that cheat codes and level jumps are important in campaign games like AoE or C&C. Getting stuck on an early map is effectively locking you out from the storyline and setpiece gameplay of later levels.

I find GalCiv games to be more like the melee modes of the RTSs. I just don't see how pressing +G enough times to increase your treasury to MAXINT makes a melee game more interesting.

~SDC~

Curious as to how Metaverse handles scores submitted by people who haven't patched versus those that do? Obviously those that haven't patched the game will have a much easier time winning and generating good scores. Does Metaverse somehow "curve" the scores to adjust for the imbalances of the unpatched game?

At work now so I'm not playing and writing at the same time.

I was just thinking outright winning isn't the only thing fun about this game.

In the game I'm playing now I finally worked my way into the top spots and I am flush with battleships and dreadnaughts. I could easily move them in for the kill and wipe the Dregnins from the map instead I choose to send a few choice ships and techs to their enemies and when one AI grows too strong send ships to the other AI. This way I am playing an omnipotent force in the universe and changing things to my liking. Next I want to try to set 2 high level AI's pure good and pure evil against each other with the others neutral.

Without a lot of options including %PQ the below would not be possible.

The last map I played for some reason the AI (yellow guys) got a 30ish planet at the start then about 50 turns later got the precursor PQ event on another planet. I think it was about 40PQ. Now without the PQ bonus and me turning everything from 13 up into something usable I probably would have succumbed early. Instead I was able to slowly over come my poor start and make alliance with the Drengin.

I let THEM do my fighting and fed them ships and tech. Later on I was pulled into the fray by treaty and unleashed my dreads on them. I killed every ship of the yellow guy and parked my dreads in front each of his planets and killed every new ship he made.

Instead of invading his system and it was a big one in one sector he had more pop than my whole culture. 3 yellows a 30ish a 27 and a 24 in one star, the 40ish one on another and 24 and a 19 on the last star I let him sit there and rot till my influence caught up to him and I stole every last planet from him and BINGO I was still in alliance with the poor single planet Drengin and won an alliance victory and got a new movie.

This is why I love the game and hate to think that I wouldn't had this enjoyable experience if the PQ option wasn't available.

I've seen the I-League in games on the easiest difficulty, so that has nothing to do with difficulty.

What's the point of beefing up the AI by going up difficulty levels if you've got a boost over it so it will never consider you beatable and hence not use those tricks on you anyway?

If you really want a PQ boost, it's probably trivial to make a mod that gives you it. Then you can play with it turned on and be happy. If you dont know how to make a mod and cant figure it out, I suggest you post a request thread in the mod forum and see if someone else makes one.

Toaddog: earlier you said you were just about finished with the game, but you obviously have much more to discover. You just said that you've uncovered a new end movie. There are several more out there and unless you have been playing unsubmitted games you have still not encounted the higher AI difficulties and all the other end movies (beyond human is my fav ). The +15% PQ isn't the only thing that's capable of overcoming a poor start or losing. It just means that you need to get creative and find someother way out. One of the games I played a while ago I was doing pretty well setting myself up for a cultural victory or possibly alliance, but then the Dengrin went to war with me and I started seriously floundering. I was able to make peace but I was in a bad way. I decided to push for a tech victory ASAP, so I went up the tech tree ignoring any techs that weren't nescissary for Beyond Human. I wound up winning and it had NOTHING to do w/ my PQ. I haven't ever used the pick and I've been doing just fine. I love the game and it's awesome how committed Brad and the team are to this game.

If you really want a PQ boost, it's probably trivial to make a mod that gives you it. Then you can play with it turned on and be happy.
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But then what's the point of removing it in the first place, at least the 15% PQ ability takes up 9 ability points, you mean I should have 15%PQ and the extra speed I can buy with my now unused points?

Posted by Toaddog:
> But then what's the point of removing it in the first
> place,

People are free to mod their personal games however they please, Stardock is free to delete their metaverse account if their mod goes beyond some nebulously defined limits and they submit it.

If you don't care about taking part in the metaverse, then mod away, add a social project that give +15 PQ, make a Political party that has that as their ability, etc.

It is as you pointed out a single player game, but there is the metaverse aspect which makes it sort of, kind of multiplayer and therefore should require us to play on a level, balanced playing field.

potatoedoughnut,

I agree and like that commercial says "sometimes I feel like a nut and sometimes I don't" there should be enough options to go around to suit all styles and types of games you want to play.
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Code Monkey,

I was afraid of that.

If this is about the Metaverse then I see the point as moot because even if this one ability does give one a big advantage there are so many other permutations with all the options available at the start that it can never be really fair and once the big advantages are honed away the same thing will need to happen with the smaller stuff.

The only way to make the Metaverse truly equal and fair is for all players to play with exactly the same options or same set of options and make only those games count anything else can be recorded as an alternete score.

If this is to make the Metaverse fair then I withdraw my objection only in that vein but not as it refers to single player only. Modable is nice but it is better to have something "official" in the front end or like those extra terraforming techs as an add-in.

Something to think about would to have these things like the PQ ability draw down the difficulty level but still allow the better AI levels or maybe a check box that would only allow Metaverse options if you want the score to be recorded or have 2 Metaverse scores one for ladder purposes with it's own icons and one to get the little icons for games played and such.

It's nice to have the Metaverse as a high score log and I use it as a record of my own score, I don't even look at the other players except to wonder how they got scores that high.

Another idea would be to put a high score list in the game itself with "snide" LOL remarks as ratings. I wouldn't even bother with the Metaverse then. Keep the Metaverse for those that want such things by playing games with only those options allowed for Metaverse games.

I'd never play enough games to make a difference anyway I'm only competing against myself anyway.

Just so that we're on the same page:

GalCiv 1.0, out of the box, does NOT allow you to increase planet quality abilities in the player set up at all.

So we are still infinitely ahead of where 1.0 was. Anything put in a downlodable update is liable to be tweaked and altered based on player feedback and play testing. The planet quality is just one example.

You know toad, the reason why you "played out the game" already, is because you seem to rely on one simple "cheesy" strat to play all your games with. You yell for complexity and cry at the very moment you are presented with more then one viable path to go with.

You can't both have your cake and eat it. It's just not working that way. Just like in a shooter game, you can't have ten perfectly balanced weapons and your favourite weapon being the strongest one at the same time.

Hehe, Frogboy you have my support you are doing a tremendous job and the effort is appreciated and understood.

I saw that extra ability as a treat and an improvement to an already great game, it can't hurt to add more variety to a great game. I was taken aback and shocked to see it removed. Well, as taken aback and shocked as one can be about a game, thank God this is the worst of my worries.

You now have my feedback, I don't expect it to be acted upon or even considered only that this is what I think and to inform that this style of play exists. I'm a pretty average Joe when it comes to gaming, maybe even above that in that I buy almost everything that comes out that's TBS, RPG or god/world building type games. Been burned by MOO3, HOMM4, and Black & White lately. Found heaven in Gal. Civ. it was the MOO3 I was waiting for all these years, I just hated to see some of that heaven get chipped away.

For fairness if the PQ thing has to go, it has to go, I'll just mod it back in when I want to use it.

It doesn't seem fair to actually ban people from the Metaverse for using mods like they hacked the .exe and did something wrong, just make the score invalid for scoring purposes. There is no in-game high-score record and the Metaverse does keep a record so we can see how we are doing.

No twisti, it is just another path to take, one I happen to like at this time. In fact the present game I'm playing is the first one I gave up speed for the complete 15%. I like the idea that I can play my way and am not shoveled into some pre-determined path. Besides what does it matter I am NOT playing against you, must we all do things the same? Next game I may try something different but I still like having that option open.

I tend to self balance my own games by not doing certain things or setting certain options. One thing I did in a game was to research techs by cost only, whatever was on the list first sorted by cost I researched. I have done many other things that if stated here would be run down as not the path to winning. So what if I want to colonize 12 PQ planets it's nobodys business but mine. I only build one Starbase per sector and don't build any outside my sectors unless there is a resource there. Is that wrong, maybe in your eyes but then you didn't buy the game for me.

Like I stated before for Metaverse purposes do whatever you want to the game but don't force us that only see the Metaverse as a place to see our high scores into your style of play. I think that's clear.

Okay gang, let's wind this down. We don't want to create an environment where people don't feel comfortable to give their opinion.

Toaddog gave his opinion which he's entitled to. Just as everyone is entitled to give a response. But let's try to back away slowly since everyone has put forth, very articulately their positions.

There is a nugget of a good suggestion in this thread though - that there should be a local high score board included, seperate from the metaverse.

Additionally, the metaverse submit option should automatically not be available if any mods are installed (I know it wont stop people who want to cheat, but the idea is to stop accidental submissions by people who make an honest mistake).

Just wondering if the AI was also using the PQ+15 to get the high quality planets you see there ?

Next, if this still possible or does has the option been removed for AI aswell to keep it fair

The problem with PQ+15 is that you are really getting a whole lot of bonuses in one, because most everything in GalCiv keys off of the planet size. So when you took PQ+15 you effectively got a morale, economy, population growth, max total population, research, military production, and social production bonus all in one single package. Combine that with the ability to settle level 14 worlds as level 16 and you have something that is way overpowered. You can even make it worse by selecting rare planets and tight clusters, leaving you free to roam the galaxy while the AI struggles to find 2-3 worlds to settle (and that's in a gigantic galaxy). So yeah, this was definitely overpowered and needed to be hit with the nerf stick a bit.

Of course, this is a highly mod-able game, if you are willing to forgo the metaverse you can pretty much set it up however you like. I think everyone should play however they best enjoy doing so.

I think people have misread Toaddog's posts. Maybe it's just me - he can clarify.

What I'm getting is that his concern with the change wasn't that it made the game easier or harder, it was that a certain type of game experience was not longer possible. Correct?

In any case the fix has been posted in "Restoring +15% PQ Bonus... if that's your thang'", so it's kind of a moot point now.

I am just a newbie to this game, but I have to say this - the only way to balance the playing field AND giving the player the PQ option is:

Give every AI the PQ option for free

PQ bonus gone?
I need a new strategy.
To kick Drengin arse.

Well, for my two cents, I liked PQ ability the way it was. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and regardless of whether or not the majority of players wanted it to be nerfed (whichI admittedly don't know one way or the other), I'm guessing the majority of players WHO POST ON HERE wanted it nerfed. I'd be happy to see a compromise, maybe at least go up to 10% but as expensive as it was previously for 15%.

However it works out, I'll still play.

I am curious as to the Littmus (sp?) test with which Frogboy and company say, Okay we are going to change something in the game based on X number of requests, complaints, etc. I know sometimes you take a stand and say "no changes", as in Fleet Combat. I applaud you for sticking to the fundamental concepts of the game. But in this instance, I think you were too quick change the game. Was PQ so out of whack that everyone had to pick it in order to have a competitive Metaverse score? Was it so out of whack that the top players weren't challenged at all on the hardest levels? Could that lack of challenge have been addressed in other ways? Did it overshadow the usefulness of all the other abilities that could be taken instead?

A word to all, and I mean this in as constructive a manner as possible, speak your mind on this forum when it comes to game changes. I would hate to see this game continually shaped by a vocal few.

~SDC~

RayChua,
personally I never use the speed ability. Spend the points on a research bonus and beeline to impulse drives (medium map and higher, 1.02) works almost as well. And the research bonus is more usefull in the later part of the game. Admittedly, on smaller maps the speed bonus could make or break the game.

I'm sad to see PQ+15 go. It was the only way I was winning, ubt on the same note... that means I obviously had barely any idea what I was doing...
SO now I'm not using it and trying to get by with a diplomatic pop growth+morale approach... in the end i guess I do appreciate the change.
I've NEVER used the speed bonus though. I didn't know if it made much of a difference.