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Complaint - Lack of Game Variation = Boredom

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Complaint - Lack of Game Variation = Boredom

from Stardock Forums
I think GalCiv is a real gem, and I'm VERY glad I bought it. It has the best AI I've ever had the pleasure of facing. But...

Like others have mentioned, I'm starting to get burned out of the game after 4 weeks. I've always had trouble finishing my games before I lose interest (I've only submitted 3 to the metaverse), and I've found it impossible to play anything larger than a medium sized galaxy. While this has something to do with my UI complaints (moving ships, building/maintaining starbases efficiently, and tweaking sliders), most of it is due to the lack of variation in the game material.

(Now, I'm not saying the game isn't deep. Chess is deep, but the rules of Chess never change.)

Here are the four fundamental truths about GalCiv.

1. Almost all techs are the same.
2. Almost all improvements are the same.
3. Almost all ships are the same.
4. Almost all events are the same.

(#4 is beyond the scope of this discussion. Thus, I'll leave it alone for now.)

Games like MoO 2 or Civ 3 had an overabundance of techs and specials that did something to change the fundamental game mechanics. If you researched Jump Gates in MoO 2, you could instantly warp ships between colonies. Food replicators let you convert production into food. You could mine your solar system to damage incoming enemies. You could isolate your empire from spies (and get a nifty Sun Tsu quote to boot). You could build planets!!! Getting techs in these games gave you more options. Teching up was FUN.

In GalCiv, teching up is tedious. I've gotten to a point where I just research the cheapest tech, because it doesn't seem to matter *what* I pick. Everything looks the same after many sessions of play.

Some techs add a flat, boring stat bonus. Others allow you to construct buildings that ONLY provide boring stat bonuses. You may get the option to build wonders, achievements, or trade goods that ONLY provide boring stat bonuses. (No Hunter-Seeker Algorithm) Starbase modules may seem better than boring stat bonuses, but in the end, that's all they are. 10% Mil & Social production. +2 Attack Assist. 25% Influence. Let's face it...Most techs are all about boring stat bonuses.

Then you have the techs that let you build ships. Aside from the very few special-purpose ships, all ships are generally alike. They only differ in their stats, and the differences aren't enough to make them unique or to have any special role in a well-rounded fleet. GalCiv's rule of thumb is "The bigger, the better".

The only interesting techs are the ones that let you do something unique. The Universal Translator, Trade, Diplomacy (possibly), Instant Communication (possibly), Alliances, Stellar Cartography, Terror Star Construction, and (possibly) Cloaking are the only techs I can think of that do something besides offering a boring stat bonus.

What needs to be done to correct this?
A. Add more unique techs that do something other than facilitating a stat bonus.
B. Create new buildings that do something than adding stat bonuses.
C. Make wonders more wonderful - have them do something other than adding stat bonuses.
D. Keep adding ships into the game that have unique strategies associated with them (like the Missile).

Am I off base here? Or am I just rambling?

- Nobody
2,128 views 44 replies
Reply #26 from Stardock Forums Top
I tend to agree about the "evolutionary, not revolutionary" nature of the tech tree. My first game, I kept looking for an effect as exciting as the descriptions. I would love to be able to build a star gate - to teleport ships accross the map.

Basically the ability to change the rules of the game as you advance through the tech tree presents interesting shifts in strategy. As the game currently plays if becomes simply a more is better proposition. More planets, bcs, ships, and higher stats" give you the win.

I also agree that it is harder to program an AI with those type of shifts available.
Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top
Vorlin,

I apologize if my message was unclear. I'm not saying anything about being limited to a given playstyle. You can play GalCiv in a number of ways, from trader, to diplomat, to warmonger, to culturist. Or you can mix things up and play all strategies at once. The game has quite a bit of depth.

I'm not asking for this to be changed. Instead, I want a few tech items that alter my general strategy as I play the game. Wouldn't you like to see something like this too?

---

Feargus,

"I think the "problem" is that almost everything in the game is evolutionary, not revolutionary. Very rarely do you get something new that changes the way you play; you usually just get things that are bigger, better, or more."

I would disagree with your wording, but I agree with your concept. Very well put.

Nothing except a handful of statless random events alters the way you play. A trader will trade the same in the beginning as he would in the end. A diplomat has almost the same options from start to finish. The Culturist and Warmonger conquer planets, but their methods remain the same. Your strategies don't evolve much as you progress through the game. Instead of evolving, they just grow in size and scope.

That's all because things revolve almost entirely around stat bonuses rather than game-bending innovations.

- Nobody
- Small Mappers Unite!
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #28 from Stardock Forums Top
"I'm not asking for this to be changed. Instead, I want a few tech items that alter my general strategy as I play the game. Wouldn't you like to see something like this too?".

I think that we all agree everything that adds to the (re)playability of the game is welcome. Perhaps it is possible to include some random events that would/could lead to you what you suggest. So if the vent happens, you can choose A, B or C (Good, Neutral, Evil) and based upon that some new techs will be available. This would be kind of an addition to what already is in the game, if you choose the path of Good, Neutral or Evil.
Reply #29 from Stardock Forums Top
Bobo also not get evil scary feeling from alien races like Patrick. Bobo NEVER get evil scary feeling from GAMES. Bobo get evil scary feeling from people outside his house.
And watching news. Sometime watching American idol. That evil. Sometime watch J. Lo on Entertainment Tonight. See her big butt. THAT scary.
Bobo say play game for fun. If want scary, watch J Lo or go to mall.
Reply #30 from Stardock Forums Top
Interesting discussion. Just a thought that most of us have been influenced in many ways by great games we have played in the past and somehow we want Galciv to be the one game to rule all strat games.

Great as this game may be, it would never meet all our expectations. But I think it is still too premature to pass judgement on a game that has been out for such a short time and which the developers have committed to improve the game based on feedback from all of us.

So let’s channel our energies instead on practical suggestions that would make Galciv a much better game than it already is.
Reply #31 from Stardock Forums Top
Okay, my bad, I think I was doing an 'apples and oranges' on you. I was thinking you meant lacked strategic variation whereas you meant something different. Sorry about that.

The problem is that every truly new ability would have to have a whole section of AI code written for it. Just picture one thing, stargates, and you can imagine the weeks it would take to write the code for the computer to use them offensively, to defend against having them used on them, and to know what priority to put on getting them. Remember just how -bad- other 4x games AI's are with the fancy items? Most of them just plain ignored them, never used them at all. They certainly couldn't handle a human player with them.

Another example is Master of Magic (MoM). That game had one of the deepest combat systems I've ever seen, it was great from the player's point of view because it was fun to figure out weird and powerful combinations, but the computer couldn't do squat with it.

Every ability you add to a game probably exponentially increases the AI needed to handle it, with the result that most 4x AIs simply outright suck, especially when you get far down the tech tree and all those goodies start showing up. I find it's impressive as hell that GalCiv has such a complex series of factors involved in 'strength' and yet the AIs play very well. A testament to Brad's programming skills.
Reply #32 from Stardock Forums Top
I note that some people have mentioned how the outcome of the game is determined early on.

I must be blessed with most of my games since this seems to rarely happen with me (it does happen - but it's not the norm).

If your games are ending up wherein you predicted a victory early on, then, yeah, that's one thing. However, if you're like my friend who quits because he doesn't see a victory in sight then I'd say you're missing out on a lot. One time the Yor and Drengin were very powerful civs on the verge of conquering the galaxy. I gave virtually everything I could to the Yor (all but planets) to get them to attack the Drengin. They agreed and the two wore each other out enough to let the good guys come in and wipe them out. So did it end there? No. Although the Altarians and I were allied with the Torians, we were not allied with each other. The dirty rotten A's would not ally with me and eventually declared war on me. Thankfully, the Torians came to my side (my military was small - too many constructors) and we did eventually beat down the A's. But for much of the game, I would have never guessed of coming out on top. Those cursed "Twilight of Humanity" reports were virtually memorized by me. LOL

Anyway, I hope nobody takes this as a slam, just encouragement to carry on in those victory-void looking games. Our logic may say "Yes, I have lost", but doing the illogical can sometimes do wonders. :)
Reply #33 from Stardock Forums Top
I pulled one from the fire earlier today. Gigantic map, normal AIs, I start in the upper-right corner. Not a good start, but I don't like to cherry pick too much, so I went with it. I had one cluster in range, but nope, minor AI civ had all the habitable planets in it. Okay, I'm filling up my cluster and scouting, boom, a Drengin ship, check on the map for population and they are in that only cluster I have available. Then I meet the Torians, check my map, and they are in a prime spot: huge cluster southwest of center with 3 smaller clusters around it. Being as I'm evil, this is not good.

I stick with it, hoping that the Torians have other AIs in at least 2 of the smaller clusters, nope, all empty of major races. I'm stuck in place, they are expanding like mad, and they drew the 'race for dreadnaught' type AI so they are going right for the throat. I would conquer laterally by taking out the Drengin first (the Yor are in the cluster west of them, -no- free clusters near me even from the start of the game), but there is no way I can do that in time to stop the Torian dreadnaught push. So I'm thinking maybe I should just cut my losses and quit. But I decided not to...

I plonk down a starbase on a miltary resource that is halfway between me and the torians (which brings them in range). Both of us must have 2 mil resources because we both have almost the same bonuses. Rats. I decide my only chance of winning is a quick deep strike into his territory, try to grab as many planets as possible and put him on the defensive. I make the assault with 35 battlehammers and 24 transports, praying I get there before the dreads start coming out. I didn't, but it was close, captured three planets (sucker had a +soldier bonus *sigh*), then offered 2 back for peace treaty. Left my 5 remaining ships garrisoning the one planet (yeah, 5 left, sounds ugly doesn't it?) and pushed some battlehammers out to replace all my battle axes (2 hammers per planet, 3 for some). Then went for tech victory. I made it, but I was sweating bullets let me tell you. Was a great win from a nasty starting position, never really thought I could pull it off.

If I'd have quit, or if I'd have gotten intimidated and tried to turtle, I would have lost. But instead I got proactive and tipped the scales in my favor. That's a great feeling (even on Normal difficulty) when you pull something like that off. :)
Reply #34 from Stardock Forums Top
Good for you, Vorlin. It takes guts to play from a weak position knowing that you could be spending valuable time getting licked by the AI. :)
Reply #35 from Stardock Forums Top
Vorlin, I have seen some situations like that before. You look at your poistion, your military, and sigh in despair, then race for a tech victory. This happens because you haven't been killed already. This is because the ai tends not to manage well the late game, particularly on bigger maps (more decisions to take). I tend to think if you survuve until dreadnoughts are around, you will win, unless maybe an event screws you.

The game could benefit from a few more strategic options, like a gambit (I love gambits in chess for example - you give a pawn for a while). There is no real gambit in GC, except for choosing Good in moral dilemmas, which are random events anyway. I'd like stuff like: Provide a random event to each race that can be triggered at will (you have a precursor thingy on your base planets, you don't know what it is, but can decide to check it when you like, the later the moe powerful): You add a single decision of "when do I do this". But the ai must be able to keep pace, and that is the most important. Don't add a concept the ai can't handle. I think the ai can handle some concepts which can be expanded with the current modability. Also, simulating fights to allow for a better comparison of fleet strengths (like don't overestimate AMM since they are useless in defense) is quite easy to do and could allow the ai to handle more types of ships. Mind you, I do NOT want tactical combat a la MOO or MoM (ai never was any good at it), but more strategic options.

This said, this game is indeed deep and a very good buy.
Reply #36 from Stardock Forums Top
Yeah, I agree that the game isn't as much fun as say MOO2 but it's O.K. Another thing that's so samey are the planets where again you basically have bigger is better. In MOO2 not only did you have planets you couldn't use until you researched a specific tech but you had a race that could only use those planets - I thought that was way cool.
Reply #37 from Stardock Forums Top
The original MoO had planets of various environments you couldn't colonize without certain tech, not MoO2. In MoO2 there were various penalties for colonizing "hostile" planets like radiated or toxic but you could do so right off the bat if you wanted to. One of a few things about MoO2 that I didn't care for at all. Really screwed the Silicoids as that was their biggest advantage in the original MoO. Don't know how many times they were spread all over the place, grabbing planets the other races couldn't colonize yet.

As for the GalCiv tech tree, I think it's extremely deep. There are a lot of tough choices if you want to race for a specific tech. Each branch is pretty well isolated and if you focus on any one (say military vs. communications) you'll find yourself behind in the others. If you take a "research the cheapos" approach you'll find AIs that have specialized and are well above you in certain areas (hate getting that "lack of diplomacy" warning when dealing with the Torians... or seeing the Drengin put out Dreadnaughts when I'm just putting Battlehammers into service).

I think the biggest problem with the game is space combat, and I'm not talking about wanting tactical combat vs. strategic... I like both but don't see why every space 4x game needs to have tactical. Once I reach Dreadnaughts that's pretty much all I build, except for some Anti-matter missiles since they're so cheap to maintain. In Civ you reach a point where tanks are the best ground troop... but there's also air and sea units to build and use. Not so in GalCiv. It's all space and usually the biggest ship is the best option. I don't think the Phoenix is a good enough late-game swarm ship to be a viable alternative. Anti-matter missiles and the forthcoming Bombardment Cruiser are the only interesting choices to make late game and that's a problem.
Reply #38 from Stardock Forums Top
I don't find surviving until the dreadnaught stage a problem, I find surviving the appearance of the dreadnaughts themselves to be an issue. There is a particular AI algorithm that any race can get (I think, I know several can) that pushes for all all-out military build. If that race also occupies more planets than you do then when they hit dreadnaughts their military power jumps alarmingly. At that point they are either going to start conquering their neighbors (in which case they grow stronger and stronger over time as they win), or they are going to come for you (usually if there is an alignment differential). I'm an infrastructure guy, I never go for dreadnaughts (I usually go with battlehammers), so this is a critical juncture for me.

I know I need to be more militaristic, but I'm just such an infra-whore, I can't resist tech that improves my race or building a structure that improves my planets, or upgrading starbases. Which can be a problem when all that gives you is a really juicy civilization for some dreadnaught lord to come obliterate. :)
Reply #39 from Stardock Forums Top
Personally, I've said it before but to reiterate.

I find the tech side to be very bland. The descrips are great, but unlike Civ where I had a sense of accomplishment and a `COOL' feeling when I finished X wonder, I don't get that with Galciv.

Oh, I completed a wonder. Good.

It lacks the feeling of being able to go to the city screen and look at the wonder and say, neat.

It lacks the video interlude that made it interesting (sure I skipped it every time after the first).

Just a bit of flavor that is missing. Little announcements of Galactic Wonders being made are very anticlimactic.

I love the game, no doubt about that!
Reply #40 from Stardock Forums Top
Bobo like movies in Civ 2 when Bobo make wonder.
After Bobo play 100 times, Bobo skip movies.
Bobo think movies cool for wonders if add to in Gal Civ, but he say turn off after 100 times. Bobo think better things to add to GalCiv more ships; design ships: play other races. Movies for wonders come much later.
That jusat Bobo thoughts. Him think too much...head hurts. Bobo leave now.
Reply #42 from Stardock Forums Top
"but unlike Civ where I had a sense of accomplishment and a `COOL' feeling when I finished X wonder, I don't get that with Galciv"

You did? Heh.. I never did. After the first time.. I was like... 'ooh.. big whoop'. You get to see your city with unrealisticly placed wonders all around it. Gee.. how wonderful. :p

The key is that in this game.. you EARNED your wonders. For the AI must also earn them. In Civ.. the other AI's could just *poof*.. make their wonders on a given turn.. no prerequisite necessary. Simply playing against a non cheating AI is very cool.

With mods, and the expansion on the horizon (not to mention the updates), this game is going to be just fine. I certainly would not complain. I've played far to many other games where you felt *lucky* to have the thing patched within the first 2 months.

fleabitfox
Reply #43 from Stardock Forums Top
I am wondering what game you played to make that statement? I find GC to be very interesting and a vast array of completely different tech. The AI on each level is a totally new challenge, not to mention each and every game is completely unique so far. I have some small gripes but none about boredom at all. That is just silly, unless great strategy games are not really your taste of games. I am a chess player, and this is one hell of a chess style game at higher levels. The AI is the best in the industry as far as I can tell. I been playing games since 1979, but that does not matter. It is a matter of taste I guess after all. I just can't see how anyone can remotely have that many complaints about this game no matter what you like normally to play. :notsure: :d

~SDC~
Reply #44 from Stardock Forums Top
Desert Fox, but what about the feeling that "oh, now my triremes can cross oceans?" or "Now I have the ability to plant forests." What we see as the flaw in an otherwise great game is nearly every tech gives a numerical improvement to a stat you already have. There is nothing new under the sun.

And the argument over wonders movies and such will never end. But GalCiv has already set the precedent by having movies for the first time you build a battleship and discover an anomaly. Why end the wonder movies there? It feels like they gave up in the middle with that particular feature.

M