Muggaz Muggaz

JoeUser – it’s up to you.

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JoeUser – it’s up to you.

Should I stay or should I go now?

from JoeUser Forums
Will you look at this conceited, pig headed moron, appealing to the masses of this blogging community, giving them the power of choice? Yeah – that’s me I guess… the decision is simply too hard for me to make on my lonesome, and whilst it all comes back to me, and how I feel about the situation, I would like to consult my blogging friends – if I have any left that is!

For reasons many of you will never know, some of you will assume, and others may implicate, Muggaz has been permanently blacklisted from everyone’s blog at the behest of the fine ‘moderators’ of this upstanding blogging community. This grieves me somewhat, as it can be construed that I am being anti-social by not commenting on other blogs, yet I assure you this is not the case.

My dilemma is simple – Should I go on posting my fine social commentary from the confines of Muggaz Adventures, or should I start fresh some place where everyone is on level footing, rather than people – i.e. me, feel like second class citizens, and generally disassociated from the community. It is the goals of the administrators to have Muggaz fade away from JoeUser like a star in the night, and without your help, that is exactly what will happen.

Am I bigger than the community? Can Muggaz adventures survive without Muggaz contributing to the community? Blogging is an extremely social activity, so the survival of Muggaz Adventures depends largely on my audience – of course, I can start some place new, build relationships with a bunch of new people who will probably think the same of me as many of you do – but I don’t really want to go through that again – bonds and friendships have been formed, and I resent having to turn my back on those weird internet relationships… besides, there are only so many internet stalkers a guy like me can handle ok?

So, depending on how this article is received, the answer will be apparent, if you bid good riddance to the Mug, tell me so, or your silence will be testimony, yet, if you feel your day is enlightened from the insight of Muggaz, and you enjoy my e-company, as I do yours, and you promise to still read my articles even though I can’t comment on yours, please let me know… Of course, I am arrogant enough to suggest the administrators are making an error in judgement, alas, I am at the mercy of their whim, so I must yield. I am not advocating members of the community make the same assumptions, I am simply stating my intentions concisely – I value this community no matter what, alas, If I am not valued – I will take my leave and continue to write wherever I choose to bestow my antics upon.

Are Stars still as bright if no-one looks at them? Yeah – sure they are, but you have the power to choose which stars you look at – perhaps I am an attention seeking goofball using a blogging community as a median to make up for my attention starved childhood – who knows? I am genuinely sincere when I say I value the friendships I have formed here, and the people I care about know who they are - I am loathe to disregard those relationships… maybe loyalty in situations like this can be interpreted as a negative character trait, but my loyalty lies with JoeUsers, unless they tell me otherwise.

Is this the last BAM!!!?

I hope not!
6,939 views 49 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
I have to agree with much of what Gene Nash has said,Muggaz. For whatever reasons I've been ready to quit in the past, I've often decided to spit out several blogs in a day instead.
I understand there is reason for moderators. But I also understand that we each have the ability to blacklist. I don't want Muggaz blacklisted from my blog. But I don't want this to drag on for you, either, Muggaz.
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
Hi, Karma,

But really, what is the point? What is the point of disagreeing or debating? It's not like it is going to accomplish anything, right? I don't believe that some bit of rhetorical genius will make the administration change its collective mind about anything.

About the only thing I can see it accomplishing is maybe getting on an admin's bad side or lowering whatever psychic capital I may have built up.

Another reason I don't want to say anything more is that -- let's say I wanted to give examples of where other people had violated the T.O.S. or made threats, I couldn't do it without pissing someone off and becoming more of a target to those I might mention. Yes I could do it in an email -- but that brings me back to what I said above. I don't believe it would have any impact and would probably just lessen my psychic capital. So, again, what is there to be accomplished in it?

To me it looks like a no win situation. No sense in playing that game.
Offworld Trading Company
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
I am not sure whether or not you consider me a blogging friend, Muggaz, I certainly do not wish you to leave. I never thought ill of you, had the impression you are kinda fun, loud and have interesting views. I will certainly read your articles if they interest me, and some of them, I have found to be insightful. I don't care whether or not you commented on mine. I myself do not always leave comments.
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top

Moderating is a judgment call.  First, we have to read what is said to even know it exists.  That, well, doesn't happen because there simply isn't enough time.  However, if somebody antagonizes an admin, then our attention is drawn to it.

People have been let back on after being exiled.  It's not our goal to ban people.  We want people to blog here, but there has to be rules.  Myrrander knows that we do let people back on after they *discuss* things with us.  (Discussing is much different than threatening to do something or telling us to do something).  Dan is no longer banned.  People are allowed back on here after discussion.  It's not a matter of "changing our minds" it's a matter of showing that you can behave in the JU community.

I think that you have a very wrong assumption on how moderation is handled.  It's not about opinions.  It's about the general well being of the community.  Debating with me does not change my opinion of a person.  Insulting me will.  Admins are people.  They have their own views and they will disagree with people.  Just because we disagree with you does not mean that we will have a bias against you. 

Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think that you have a very wrong assumption on how moderation is handled. 


You forget that I was doing this as far back as the 80's as well.


They have their own views and they will disagree with people.  Just because we disagree with you does not mean that we will have a bias against you. 


I'm not saying it is a purposeful thing but I do believe that when someone is seen as more-often-than-not being critical or disagreeing, and another person is seen as being nice that it will have an impact. Perceptions do get developed and I believe those perceptions influence decisions. A bias for is as bad as a bias against.

I'll give you an example. Without naming names, I once saw Brad say (paraphrasing) "I can't imagine X or Y calling someone an asshole" when X had just within 2 weeks prior called someone an asshole on a thread Brad was taking part in. See, Brad has a very positive feeling about X, and that's fine. All I'm saying is those perceptions can play into a form of myopia where on a subconscious level you play down or forget the bad things one person does or play up and vividly remember the bad things another person does.

I'm not saying it is on purpose but it does exist. That's human nature.


It's not a matter of "changing our minds" it's a matter of showing that you can behave in the JU community.


Then why debate? You said go ahead and disagree and debate. My question was why bother? It looks to me like you are saying go ahead and voice what I disagree with. My question was, why when it won't make any difference? (I have in the past said what I disagree with, anyway. There's no secret there.)


It's not about opinions.  It's about the general well being of the community.


You don't have strictly enforced guidelines where if Z happens, no matter who does it, there is an admin response. As such, it is about opinions. You started by saying it is a judgement call. As long as it is a judgement call it is about an opinion. If there was a policy and that policy was evenly enforced regardless of perpetrator then it would not be about opinions, then there would be no need for judgement calls. If you want it to truly be objective rather than subjective then X has to be reprimanded for calling someone an asshole (and Y for calling someone a twat) just as much as anyone else would be, no matter X's rank or standing in the community.
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
It's after 8 A.M. here and I haven't been to sleep yet. We'll have to continue this later.

If you really want to discuss it further than we'll have to move to email because I can't give any more examples in public without pissing someone off.
Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top

You started by saying it is a judgement call.

What I meant by "judgment" call is how to handle a situation when it is presented.  First you have to decide if the error was so egregious that action needs to me taken.  If that is "yes" then you have to decide what to do.  No "authority" acts in a vacuum.  You can't escape outside forces, but you can try and keep as neutral as humanly possible.  No human can be 100% objective.  It is impossible to have interaction with people and not have to make a judgment call at some point.

Neither Brad nor I know everything that is said on here.  And, I can't speak for Brad and what he has said.  however, I can say that I can not recall ever saying anything like you are pointing out.  Brad is a very busy person, and he skims a lot of what is said.  He runs a company.  You can't expect him to know what is going on all the time.  However, the question would be if what he said had any reaction to it.  Did the person lose privileges because of the opinion that he expressed?  Did that opinion have any real effect?  That is the difference.  Just like a judge has to keep an open mind and use a reasonability test when making a decision, so do the admins of this site.  Just because we disagree does not mean that we will create a bias either way.  That is just an assumption that people make.

And, how would you know if somebody was "reprimanded" or not?  Does it have to be public to have happened?  Does dirty laundry always have to be made public.

But, bottom line, Muggaz knows why he was confined.  He also knows what it will take to get it removed.  The ball is in his court. 

Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
Muggaz, I have had disagreements with you in the past, but would hope we have put those behind us. I have to echo those who have stated that we all (you, I, anyone here) need to understand there are rules to play by. Perhaps we don't like them, perhaps we feel they are applied with some bias. Nevertheless, there they are. All comments in this blog aside, the power is yours to make the ultimate decision as to whether you want to play here (with an understanding of the rules), or if you want to head elsewhere and see what you find.

Whatever your decision, I will continue to pop in to your blog on occasion if it is active, and welcome anything you may choose to leave in mine.
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top

If you really want to discuss it further than we'll have to move to email because I can't give any more examples in public without pissing someone off.

Gene, don't sweat it.  I do know what you are getting at, and I do know that you are a very reasonable person and that you can see things from both sides.  I also know that you understand that we can't be perfect 100% of the time and it's impossible for us to even know what is going on all the time.  But, if you want, feel free to email me what you have seen and how you view it.  It is possible that what you have read I haven't even seen, or I may have missed what you want to point out.  I promise that it won't piss me off....unless you feel like calling me an asshat or something

Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
Ah, as someone who had his name mentioned, I'll clarify. I wasn't exiled for disagreeing with Brad. I was exiled for calling Brad names. Which, in retrospect, was pretty dumb of me, not just because he's an admin, but because it's childish. Secondly, I made a second name (this one) and I made a friend of mine a name from my computer (yes, yes, they all had the same password, believe what you will) and I was simply told that was against the rules, be nicer and pick one account. Which was fine with me. I have continued to disagree with Brad, and he's answered with his own opinions but no threats of banishment, which is A-OK with me. I'd prolly sit down and have a beer or a cup of coffee with any of you, even if I think your politics are nutty.

In short, as somebody who's been on this train, I don't think people are getting gigged for disagreeing with moderators. It wasn't even hard to get my account back, I just had to act like a civilised human being. That having been said, I enjoy your posts Muggaz, so I hope it all works out.

Cheers.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh, god, here I go. There'll be a black mark next to my name in someone's book after this.

I know what's going on here, and as we appear to be keeping names on the DL, I won't give any that haven't been mentioned. This demotion of Muggaz to "visitor" status is stupid. He and the Other Person (OP) just don't get along and he wound up paying for it while she gets off scott free (as far as I know). That's ridiculous. In terms of adding new and interesting views and ideas to this forum, Muggaz is far ahead of her. In terms of blogging, she's very interesting--they both are. But to punish one and not the other... c'mon. They've both been doing it, and by "it" I mean antagonizing each other. Neither will let their little spat die. And as far as what happens on other forums, it should stay on OTHER FORUMS.

We all have the option to blacklist and Muggaz is NOT a person I would blacklist, and I don't appreciate having that taken away from me. He's admitted he has faults which is more than I can say about OP and it's clear that he tries very hard to make things better if he's made them worse. That's perfectly evident in the e-mail to Karma/Angie/whoever. Does he always say the right thing? No. Does he admit that? Yes.

Sorry, but I think a bad call was made here. Muggaz, if you stay, I'll continue to interact with you on your blog. If you go...elsewhere....I'll watch you there, too. You're awesome.
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top

Angloesque, read #12 again.  It is not because of the dispute, it's because of what he threatened to do.  I don't care whose "side" anyone is on.  Both are wrong.  He wouldn't have been confined, either, if he wouldn't have said what he did.  Can I make it any more clear?  You also don't see the other side of this.  You are only seeing the one email that was sent after all the others, not the ones that caused this.

And, as I stated: "bottom line, Muggaz knows why he was confined.  He also knows what it will take to get it removed.  The ball is in his court."

Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
Karma,

I prefer blog #13 beause it has context. Sorry, but Muggaz's threats seem pretty weak to me. "I will comment as I see fit." What's wrong with that? I blog as I see fit all the time. As for personal attacks, that's what I'm talking about. Neither one is immune, here, but you've chosen to demote him. And for what it's worth, I have been watching and reading about this issue for ages now.

-A.
Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
I should probably add that I don't mean to make this sound personal, Karma. I, like others here, can be bad at choosing my words, so I would hope that no hard feelings come out of this. (Usually I shut up about this stuff, but every so often--perhaps my proximity to Mt. Saint Helens?--I know I need to be heard.)

-A.
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top

Angloesque, you don't have the emails in front of you.  All you see is the last "friendly" email that he sent days after the fact.  The "comment as I see fit" is not weak when it is in the context of the feud that he had going on.  It was also directly after "if this turns messy, my gloves really will come off, and the personal attacks will fly towards her". 

It doesn't matter if *both* were having issues with each other.  The fact is that *he* made those threats.

Look at it from an Admins point of view:

You have two people equally doing wrong things.  One person sends you an email that says "I'll quit, sorry" and quits.  The other sends you an email that states "if this turns messy, my gloves really will come off, and the personal attacks will fly towards her".  What do you do?  Would you wait and see if he really does keep the war up and then ban both of them?  Or, would you confine him and let it die then restore him after everybody quit so that nobody got banned?

Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
in the heat of the moment, it has taken me some time, and I understand if you can't forgive me for that, but it was away out of line, and I am sorry from the bottom of my heart.


I am sorry you bore the brunt of a pissed off Muggaz... thats no excuse, but I cannot emphasise enough that when I emailed her, your best interest's, and those of the community were at heart... you can take my word for it or not... I do swear on my dads grave though, and thats the strongest oath i can present.


I am sorry this has carried on, I have done some stupid things, said some stupid things, but Angie, I am not the bad guy, and I refuse to be painted as such.


How many apologies do you need?
Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top

Angloesque, you are picking a battle with one sided information.  I refuse to drag this out, and I refuse to drag the rest of this dirty laundry into the forums.  I am sorry that you can not see this from an admin view point, and I am sorry that you can't understand that you are only seeing one side.  I know he is your friend, and I know that it is obviously not possible for you to be objective.  But, please, just stop.  If Muggaz wants off confinement, he knows what needs to happen.  You are not helping him in the least.

Until this drops and people chill out, nothing is going to change.  I'm done with this conversation.  There is nothing more to say.

Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
One-sided? Funny, I've seen two.
Dragging dirty laundry? You were the first to post it here.
I'll agree that I don't see this from an admin point of view.
It's not possible for me to be objective? Probably true, but it doesn't make me wrong.
Stop? Okay. After this, I'm done.
Not helping him in the least? I didn't know that standing up for something I believe in was wrong. And it sounds like you're threatening him based on what I've said, which, as we both know, wouldn't be particularly nice of you.

-A.
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
Angloesque,

Apologies are not what is being requested. He can apologize all he wants, but that's not addressing the issue, which is really his behavior. I didn't see anything along the lines of "I won't do it again" or "I won't post personal attacks" anywhere in his posted e-mail.
Reply #45 from JoeUser Forums Top
Anglo,

To follow up now to your 43 (the previous was to your 41),
No, you haven't seen full information from both sides. What we've seen here is 98% Muggaz and 2% Karma.
Dirty Laundry? No, Muggaz was the first to post it. Karma merely posted the minimum amount possible to explain the context within which she took action.
Standing up for what you believe in? What exactly is it that you are standing up for here? (Serious question, I can think of a couple of options and I'd like to know.)
Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
Muggaz you stay...you hear me????? This whole thing is dumb! Do what it takes to get off the blacklist and BAM!!! away!
Reply #47 from JoeUser Forums Top
Perhaps you’d be happier with a real blog site instead of this soap opera-ish community. They don’t really seem to want you at their little party.
Reply #48 from JoeUser Forums Top
Can't we all just get along?

I hope you continue to blog Mugs, and hope that you can "behave yourself" and be allowed to comment on blogs. I miss you in my Blog!
Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top
I have heard all i needed to hear - you guys are awesome... Muggaz remains.

BAM!!!