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Was in a huge single player game, and the AI doesnt play by the same rules

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Was in a huge single player game, and the AI doesnt play by the same rules

or : Who wouldnt like instant friends in the galaxy?!

from Sins Forums

Ok, I really love this game (precursor to the "but this ticks me off" part :)), and this is my 4th Huge game.

But this is the first time this has occured.

I created the game with normal settings, 8 players, Pirates, and 2 out of the 8 AIs were hard, and the other 6 were on normal.


The solar system I started out in ends up containing 4 AIs, one of which is a hard AI.  The solar system had about 28 planets total.

About half way through, (before my demise) and 20 minutes in, the Hard AI decides to attack one of my planets - no big deal, iv got the skill and the ships to combat their assault.

Then I notice that one of the computers that were boxed in by me, who are near my planet that is under attack, joined the fight against me.  3 minutes later, the other 2 AIs join in the assault against me.


Now before this I attempted to boost my standing with the other factions, however I cant do all of them at once because I dont have the fleets to appease all of their missions and defend my bases at once.  So even if I had chose to make friends with 2 of them, it would have been a long stretch to defeat both computers fleets on two seperate fronts to gain access to the mission objectives, and defend my position from the other two AI.


But!  After watching the recording, the AIs dont need to do the same thing I have to do to make friends ; I watched the Hard AI diplomacy screen before my planet was attacked, and boom - within about 3 minutes all the players in the solar system decided they wanted to form ceace fire/fleet & planet vision/cooperation in attacks.

Their percentage of trust with eachother was at 0%, but that wasnt as alarming as : "Hey, wanna be friends?" "Sure thing!  Here is what im going to do next, join me for this panty-raid!" - where as when they talk to me "Hey there, wanna call a ceace fire?" "Nah, im good, im not the kinda guy to do something like that for no good reason.  You seem like a nice guy though."

I reviewed my replay, nothing I could have done could have prevented the attack.  I built as many ships as I could, almost as fast as the Hard AI, but since they decided to gang up on me there was no way to stop it.

Is it a bit odd that iv got to jump through hoops to make someone happy, but total strangers can just decide to be friends on a whim?  It obviously lead to my empires death, my first defeat in months, but there was no way to avoid it, and im a bit miffed that the computer doesnt have to play by the same rules I do.  Id like to see the computer play by the same rules, or be on some sort of equal footing, to make this a more believable situation, or at least a situation that could be combatted.

Was the only way to win not to play?  What is the purpose of starting a game where the outcome must be defeat?  What were the odds that all of them would decide to become friends at the same time? I wouldnt mind losing so much, if there was something to learn from it, but in this case the lesson seems to be "dont play against a stacked deck" - no surprise there  :)


I like my single player and multi player games, but id like to see this issue fixed at some point.  I think what ever causes it makes this scenario unrealistic, and obviously no fun at all.

Thanks for your time!

57,112 views 37 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
Of course you don't want to make it so deep that it becomes unmanageable, but I think spying in some capacity would be a welcome addition in the expansion.
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Exactly, you wouldn't want it to get so complicated that it just became a hindrance. After all this is an RTS not a TBS, and managing your empire and fleets can be a handful at times. If they made it simple and easy to use then I think that would be good.
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
you can set the number of players per star system when you custom a map. i do it all the time.
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #28 from Stardock Forums Top
I kind of like the idea of using the Black Market as the way to spy on your enemies. the Black Market will have a price for each player. it'd be like the black market. same price to everyone, fluctuating depending on how many people are buying information on that player. but you only get a snap-shot of what their stats are. and there's a 1-2 minute cool down, so that you can't just keep clicking the button to either raise the price or get a clearer picture.
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
The thing thats annoying me at the moment is that all the missions are against my 2 allies, and each ally wants me to trash the other one.

I'm actually quite happy with both of them, so I dont want to attack either, at least until I get rid of the other 7 (2 down, 5 to go).

But the ways its going, I'll be forced to choose pretty soon. Unfortunately, the one thats more important to keep allied, is the one with the biggest hit for failing, and since they are TEC as well as me, it really makes no sense at all to be at war with them.

I'll have to try it with them as a team member next time to see what the difference is.

Back to the OP, I usually play with teams locked, and will be going back to that I think. The whole concept of being offered alliance with vasari and advent forces simply because I did a couple of their tasks purely because I was attacking that enemy anyway, is a bit bizarre !

I also only play maps with low numbers of phase lines. This ensures that there is always choke points, and I fortify these (guns, hangers and multiple repairs) and base fleets there. So by midgame, even if they throw everything they have at me, I can usually hold.

I've also seen 2 enemies flying down the same phase line to get to me, and when they hit me, it turns into a 3 way battle. 4 way if someone sends rebels as well. If you have your fleet balanced and maxed, your fortifications correctly placed, then you should be able to hold any given planet regardless of whats hitting it. But it only works if the phase lanes are few, or you just get bypassed.

When all else fails, mod :)

I've boosted the gauss guns, so only a major attack will take a planet I dont have a fleet in. I figure TEC's first response to the vasari was to boost their defenses, so a harder, longer hitting gauss gun and more fighters in the hanger. Does wonders, and saves you the worry over planets that are otherwise impossible to defend in time. If you lose them, at least they did some damage first and gave you time to mount a response.
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
The thing thats annoying me at the moment is that all the missions are against my 2 allies, and each ally wants me to trash the other one.

I'm actually quite happy with both of them, so I dont want to attack either, at least until I get rid of the other 7 (2 down, 5 to go).

But the ways its going, I'll be forced to choose pretty soon. Unfortunately, the one thats more important to keep allied, is the one with the biggest hit for failing, and since they are TEC as well as me, it really makes no sense at all to be at war with them.
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When I get into those situations I have to use a little imagination.

"Sir! Intelligence has reported that our allies the Severon Rebels, a TEC empire, has begun launching assualts against another one of our allies, the Avalonian Republic, another TEC nation. The Severon are twice the strength of the Avalonians and the smaller nation is doomed to fall. We can't sit back and watch them be destroyed by those traitorous filth."

I normally side with the weaker guy in this situation. I hate to see the smaller nations overwhelmed.

The whole concept of being offered alliance with vasari and advent forces simply because I did a couple of their tasks purely because I was attacking that enemy anyway, is a bit bizarre !
End of quote


Also some imagination goes here too.

It is entirely plausible that a Vasari faction might reconsider the invasion of TEC space and think that it is better to ally with them then fight against them. Or an Advent sect might decide that it is a good idea to ally with the TEC to fight against the Vasari and they are willing to fight against their Advent bretheren who will most likely look at them as Heretics and betrayers to the Unity.

Many different ways to look at why other factions are allying with you.  :HOT: 

Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
The thing thats annoying me at the moment is that all the missions are against my 2 allies, and each ally wants me to trash the other one.
End of quote


That happened in every game i played so far, and it's getting on my nervs.

The AI behaviour, the diplomacy, the missions, all this needs some more development.
Some espionage would be awesome too.
Heck i can't even offer missions, i was quite surprised about this.

The AI in general acts very dumb as well, even on hard, but it has been said already several times in other threads.
Most AI-behaviour that annoys me is that it likes to flee back and forth with the fleet, even 100 times in a row while our fleets were actually somewhat even.
It just seems that alot of decisions of the AI are too static, the AI doesn't risk anything, the AI only goes into heavy battle if they can almost double-outnumber your fleet or if it has 2 or 3 other allys to gank up on you.

Yes, the AI in 6 - 10 Player games almost always ganks up on you. Reading that the AI doesn't have to complete missions can be quite depressing :p


Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
The odd thing about this, is that I'm number 1 accross the screen, and they think I need to keep them happy ?

Hello ! They need to be keeping me happy ! And doing my bidding !

The attitude should change according to the position on the rankings the player is.

When your on the bottom, the current attitude is fine, but when you on the top, they should be being nicer if they want some attention.

You should also be able to offer an alternative mission to avoid the inevitable panelty. No I will not hit an ally, but heres 1000 crystal to keep you happy instead, is that ok ?

It would be nice if you could actually achieve allies status with the majory of the players. And win because everyone loves you ! (And because your number 1 with the biggest baddest fleet).
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
If they REALLY wanted to complicate it, how about making culture affect how much they like you?
"Well, you refuse to blow up green's tactical structures... But MAN this hamburger tastes good! Wanna team up?"

It would be nice if you could actually achieve allies status with the majory of the players. And win because everyone loves you ! (And because your number 1 with the biggest baddest fleet).
End of quote


Kinda like Black & White? Either you can be an evil bad god and crush their village, your you can be a good god and everyone flocks to you... You can be an evil empire or a good empire (stocked with culture centers, of course), and win either way. That would be really interesting.
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
Hello everyone, first time poster, long time lurker ;)

I have been playing for i think a month now and i love this game. But I do believe this game is missing an espionage/counter espionage element. Something that could be added through the Black Market/Pirates, or added in a new research tree. I like the black market idea of purchasing info, with it becoming more expensive as time goes on. But i don't trust pirates... and i would never trust my empire with possibly false info from a bunch or mercenary pirates. Would you? However I think you can add this element through a new research tree.

Labeled of course Espionage you will be offered options like:

spy - you build a trade ship (duplicate of your ally/enemies) and sneak the spy into their trade port, there you have a limited amount of chances to access info about your ally/enemy. Every time he accesses this info, the spy put himself more at risk of getting caught. Will give you resource info, and research level info, planet development (of course that would mean somethings now available, planet health and others, would be hidden).

Stealth cap ship - a cap that is half the cost, half the armor, half the fire power, but twice a fast. ist level would be stealth, not sure what would the middle abilites would be but the 6th level option is - capture frigate. This option will allow this cap to interogate a crew from a captured frigate ship. this will only give you fleet size and location info.

Sabotage - allows a spy (once in trade port, risking detection) to get into a planet's orbital defenses and lower (could be one or all of) damage/armor/etc. of the platform or even reversing it effects (phase inhibitors, nano jammers, etc.).

Subliminal messages - spy (once again must be in trade port, once again risking detection) will travel to culture centers and insert subliminal messages into culture broadcasts, reducing alligance or even causing an uprising.

Spy level - increases effectiveness of spy and reduces his detection. Also increases his loyalty (spies should be able to be capture and interogated also).

of course the research tree would be filled with counters to all these (increased security at trade ports with a reduction in income of course, stealth detection cruisers, anti spy stuff, or even capture spy (very difficult), etc.) so you could protect yourself (or reduce the effects) of the espionage.

Just a few ideas.
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
If they REALLY wanted to complicate it, how about making culture affect how much they like you?
"Well, you refuse to blow up green's tactical structures... But MAN this hamburger tastes good! Wanna team up?"
End of quote


LOL! ROFL! and any other internet slang that means laughing.

No, definitly not have culture affect it. We don't want to make this game almost an exact copy of GalCiv do we? I mean it already is very similar, difference is that it is an RTS. I say let culture be, in GalCiv it was way too easy to win by culture.

It would be nice if you could actually achieve allies status with the majory of the players. And win because everyone loves you ! (And because your number 1 with the biggest baddest fleet).
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You can do that, it would just be kinda difficult. The majority of the AI would have to be giving you missions on only 2 other CPUs that you are fighting. But in a sense you could do that.


But I do believe this game is missing an espionage/counter espionage element. Something that could be added through the Black Market/Pirates, or added in a new research tree.
End of quote


My thoughts exactly. We had been discussing a little bit about having an espionage system that would give you snapshots of who was allied with who and stuff. I like some of your ideas, the only one that is on the lower end of my opinion is the stealth Cap.

Oh and welcome to the fun world of posting on this forum.
Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
Thanks.

Well, with the cap ship idea I was kinda thinking of a ship that could basically catch and contain another ship with in it's own hull. And something the size of a cap catching (with a tractor beam of sorts) something the size of a frigate, made sense. So i went with a cap.

But yeah, I think a quick snaphots of enemy fleet, economy, and research levels, along with the ability to sabotage the abilites of the orbital platforms and/or shut down weapon and civic labs (to remove a level of research temporarily), adds a nice non-complicated twist to the game.
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
The Advent could do the snapshot using a station. It has a staff of high psi people and periodically they provide a snapshot of whats going in a system. 8 civ to build it and a very long cooldown period so it cant be used very often.

TEC could do the same with a 'spy center'.

Not sure whats in character for vasari, but maybe they have too many advantages anyway.

The structure just needs to be built, and the update occurs regularly whenever the cooldown period elapses. No micro-management needed.

The only difficult bit is displaying the data.