Will Trade AI Ever be Worked On?

It's usually better to go to war, destroy the starbase and replace it, then sue for peace. I agree that the ai is a bit over protective of starbases, but it prevents abuse, so it's a lesser evil IMO.
I don't think it would be easy to evaluate properly all the ins and outs of a situation, and the evaluation function should be biased in favor of the ai so that it doesn't do foolish things. Here, it seems a bit excessive indeed.

Its not the trade system that is messed up. Its the starbase useage system. You'd take that trade in a heart beat? Unless you're playing on a small map that would stupid. 3 systems is NOTHING on a large (even a medium map). The monetary benefit of a fully tricked out Economic Resource over the course of the rest of the game will DWARF any money you'll get out of those planets. DWARF IT. Basically you just offered to give the AI 3$ and get back $300 (the benefit to you and the benefit lost to them). And you wonder why he turned you down?

The problem is not that he turned you down. The problem is that now that he has accurately assessed the true value of that resource...he won't actually exploit it. I RARELY have ever seen the AI bulk up a starbase to the maximum mining potential their tech will allow. I'm sitting on starbases that are +40-50% mining, and they're at +15%. They'll waste a zillion constructors getting the defense up to 120 and the attack up to +7 but then they don't bother to garrison it. They'll even waste constructors building starbases that AREN'T on resources that they never upgrade AT ALL...neither cultureally to go after my sectors or with trade bonuses...just wasting constructors that COULD be giving them a bigger Mining bonus.

That's the problem...not that the AI won't give you the resouce. Of course the AI won't give you the resource...that would be stupid. But failing to use the resource well after they get it is equally stupid.

This is true of any resource, though IMO Econ is the best. The military resource allows you to maintain military superiority with fewer ships. Less money spent on ships, less money spent on maintenance, and more money spent on research and social production is almost as good as getting an Econ boost direct (better if surrounded by hostiles). The research resource is incredibly valuable for boosting the tech race...but to put it in pure economic terms you could maintain the same level of research by spending less of your budget each turn...that saved money is ALOT of saved money. The Morale research allows you maintain larger happier populations which translates directly to higher tax revenue (and less maintenance on Combat Transports used to control population growth). Another HUGE economic advantage. The only resouce I don't particularly care for 1 way or another is the Influence resource. It saves some money on not having to buy Embassies and Newsnets to keep your planets from converting, but other than that its primary benefit is assisting with a culture win...which is pretty easy to get anyway

How would it be stupid? You are telling me that the IMMEDIATE bonus of:

+30% population
+30% diplomacey
+10% morale
+20% ship hit points

3 systems

.. is nothing compared to an econ bonus, which they WOULD need to milk the entire game to make up for it?! Do they REALLY think that I am going to let them keep a starbase in the sector where I have 3 systems? They should realize that is a HUGE target of opportunity for me.

So instead of going to war, losing this resource anyway, and gaining NO bonus, they could get an early game bonus that would really help in the long run. How can the econ bonus make up for all those other bonuses?! I think you overvalue credits, perhaps. The economic bonuses in the long run from having a larger population, higher morale (higher taxes) and getting more out of trades IMO VASTLY outweights ONE piddly starbase, even on a resource. It is not invunerable you know.

I could see if this resource and starbase was say.. in their OWN territory. But how in the world can you say that all those immediate bonuses are worse than ONE starbase? That's insane, sorry. There is absolutely NO guarantee that they will even keep that starbase! Once they have those trade goods, they are theirs to keep for the entire game!

So yup.. I WOULD take that trade in a heartbeat. Heck.. with all the bonuses I would get, I could field my OWN fleet, and come take the resource by force later anyways! One starbase doesn't = jack.. it is a non guaranteed source of revenue, it could be lost at any time. Turning down a deal that gives them INSTANT substantial bonuses, as well as a foothold into my sectors does indeed, not make sense.

LDiCesare, I figured that was the case. That is, that this was in as a measure to prevent the player from cleaning up. But that is what I meant by improving the AI. I don't think anyone in their right mind should turn down 4 trade goods that vastly improve 4 areas of your empire. Perhaps they can do a quick add of the bonuses they get from the trade, and if it is over a certain % than you are offering, they will accept. I probably would not REALLY offer 4 trade goods, not even for that one starbase. But I would have offered a couple, to get what would be a strategically nice placed starbase for me. For him, it is a huge risk to NOT trade it. Obviously if I offer a fair amount for it, I want it. If he declines all trade offers.. he best be prepared for me to take it by force. They should take that into consideration, I think.

fleabitfox

The best proof that the AI isn't rejecting a good trade is that you're trying to make it.

You would have been more than happy to give them all that stuff for that resource, right?

So the starbase is really more valuable, ain't it? Otherwise why would you want it so bad.

Fleabit you need to play a little more.
On a small map where planets are few...yes.
On a large map...even medium I expect...no.

That Econ boost is a boost to tax revenue from ALL planets. The maximum BC you can get from 3 planets over 50 turns pales in comparison to the maximum BC you can get from a 50% Econ boost applied to 20-30 planets over that same amount of time.

As for keeping the starbase...well that falls into the category of the AI making poor use of its starbases.

So yes...relative to what the AI is actually going to do with that starbase you're right. They should sell it. Relative to what they COULD do with that starbase if their Starbase useage was better...in other words if I were playing you and you offered me that trade I would laugh at you too.

But then I wouldn't leave a virtually undefended underupgraded starbase sitting in your sector either.

What the AI SHOULD do, is send a stack of its most defensive ships to sit on that starbase. If it were me, I'd also throw in a stack of Combat Transports (another unit the AI has trouble using properly) because they are Magnificent defenders right up through the dreadnought era AND they'd force you to garrison those planets to keep me from simply invading them.

I'd then build the econ on that starbase up to the maximum mining bonus allowed, throw on a bunch of military upgrades and starbase defenses to make sure you couldn't do squat to take it from me.

I'd then begin building cultural improvement until the sector and subsequently all of your planets become mine.

I would NEVER trade you that starbase for what you offered. The problem is the AI won't do any of these things and you'll be able to just take the base from it without much effort. As I said. Thats not a flaw in the trade system, that's a flaw in the Starbase system.

As for your trade goods bonuses...yeah, those are nice to be sure...but nothing the AI can't get by trading for technology. There's plenty of tech that will boost those things that it can get on its own or from trading with the other AI...so while they ARE nice (in no way saying they aren't) they are NOT worth an econ starbase.

Further...lets look at those wonderful planets you were willing to trade. I'm betting the planets you were offereing were not 26PQ fully tricked out powerhouses located together in an area that would give the AI cultureal dominance were they. I'm guessing they were 15PQs with a minimum number of social upgrades and likely located in sectors firmly within your cultural dominance so they'd flip right back to you anyway...right...? Be honest. That's a cheese tactic that was nerfed a couple of patches ago.

In other words they're planets that probably will cost the AI more BC than it would earn him...plus the BC he'd spend upgrading the planet...wasted when it flips back to you. I wouldn't give you bupkiss for planet's like that let alone control of the most important resource in the game.


Miguel: Ayup.

Miguel: things have different worths to different people.

Otherwise no one would ever trade anything, even IRL.

"The only resouce I don't particularly care for 1 way or another is the Influence resource."

Hmpf, i love influence resources . Their positions are allways in the back of my mind.

"its primary benefit is assisting with a culture win...which is pretty easy to get anyway"

Umm, which hard to get wins do you favour?

Hey Snuis...not that I'd pass one up if it came my way by any means...but if ranking the resouces in order of which I find most valuable it would be at the bottom. Not useless mind you...just that if I had a limited number of constructors to work with and resouces of every type, I'd be upgrading all the other ones to max before I started upgrading influence.

In order for me:

Econ,
Military (these may be swapped if neighbors are hostile or if going for a military win in the late game)
Morale
Research
Influence

"but nothing the AI can't get by trading for technology"

Wanna bet? How can they get trade goods if I don't trade them to anyone else? I can get all the same normal tech upgrades that they can, so as long as I keep up, I will *always* have those bonuses. You don't have the #'s anymore than I do.. but I feel that a +30% pop bonus will vastly outweight one starbase, no matter how much you upgrade it. More pop = more production = more money. And every planet gets this as well. Does a 30% population increase = more money than a 5% economic bonus? I think it does. Tons of things ALSO give economic bonuses, from 2% to 5% and greater. I can build galactic stock markets and news networks and other economy building social projects just like everyone else.

Trade goods give permanent bonuses that you get to pick and choose who else has them.. or no one at all. Bonuses that you can't get any other way. Trade goods are also getting tweaked in 4, so they are worth more to the other races (as they should be). Trade goods are huge, imo. They are akin to wonders, but are a bit different. And more powerful imo, than a resource.

Just the fact that a resource with a starbase HAS to be protected if it is lucrative makes it a deficit from the get-go. I disagree.. I think several trade goods are equal to that one starbase.

But FOUR trade goods? And 3 star systems? One was 18, one was 20, and one was 31. Cheesy? Hardly. I always run soil and habitat improvement, and the class 26 ended up being a 31.. what I offered him.

You will never convince me that even on a huge or gigantic map (with all the races playing), that one piddly starbase on a resource is worth 4 trade goods, let alone 3 planets thrown in for good measure. That's insane.

"The best proof that the AI isn't rejecting a good trade is that you're trying to make it.

You would have been more than happy to give them all that stuff for that resource, right?"

Nope.. as I said, I would at most (because I really wanted that starbase, mostly because of the bonuses to my 3 systems) have realisticly offered 2 trade goods. I would have leaped at 4 trade goods and 3 systems! The bonuses from 4 trade goods is immense.

fleabitfox

Sure that it's a 30% bonus to population, or even a 30% bonus to maximum population, and not merely a bonus to population growth rate?

You're welcome to think that Fox. You'd just be wrong.

Have you ever played on a large map? How many planets do you have? Now...how many planets do you have that are actually PROFITABLE?

How many have higher income than they do expense? It tells you on the planet view screen. Answer: Few. Even your big planets with huge populations aren't going to make you much money.

In fact...planets almost never make money. They are costs that allow you to produce stuff. On a small map, as I repeatedly said, the marginal increase in your production from 3 planets is significant. On a huge map...didly squat. You could have the Fundamentalists come and take those 3 planets from you and never even notice they were gone. My last game I had 30 planets that were 25PQ+...if you'd offered me those three my response would have been...yeah so what...

Understand this, learn it and you will prosper. Planets are NOT sources of income. Planets are sources of production. If you're playing well every dime plus earned by a planet will get poured back into production.
Production is important yes...but its also the EASIEST thing to expand.

You can easily replace the lost production from 3 planets simply by building starbases with production enhancers. 1 fully tricked out production starbase can take a project on a large planet from 77 Turns to complete to 21 turns to complete. You can build 3 overlords at one planet as easily as 1 over lord each at 3 planets just by building 1 starbase (plus they stack and with good planets the cap doesn't hit very early). What does this mean? It means the importance of individual planets is less than you think.

Further it is FAR easier to conquer an enemy planet than a well defended starbase given equal military quality and numbers. Plus you can lose planets to influence, you can lose them to rebellion, you can lose them to random events. I've yet to see a random event that destroys starbases (now, the resolution that limits starbases to only 3 modules changes this dramatically, but I've never seen a single AI vote for this in all the times its come up).

BTW: the economic boosters you build on individual planets are very valuable...but they are individual only. +50 Econ from an econ resource is far better than +50 Econ on a planet.

As far as you keeping up with the AI, yeah, on the lower difficulties you can. Jack up the difficulty to crippling and see how far behind the tech curve you fall. Now I'm not saying that trade goods aren't valuable. They ABSOLUTELY are. If you'd offered those 4 trade goods for tech the AI probably would have given you anything you wanted except major military tech for them. If you'd asked for money you probably could have gotten a good 20-30 turns of 100-200BC a turn (depending on relative Diplomacy).

But an econ starbase...nope...if you'd have made that trade its only because you haven't played enough to realize what a bad deal it is.

Or again...what a bad deal it WOULD be if the AI used them properly. Given what the AI actually likely did with that starbase in your game it probably would have been better off taking your deal. But that's not a trade mistake...that's a starbase useage mistake.

Yea.. ok, sure the AI trades wisely. :notsure:

I mean heck.. just because I loaded the same game, and offered up the same 4 trade goods for ONE EMPTY COLONY SHIP that was parked around their planet and TURNED DOWN doesn't mean a thing. I'm sure that this empty colony ship was critical to their races survival, and the massive economic boost it offerer *far* outweighed the piddly bonuses of those 4 trade goods.

Don't take my word for it. Load up a game.. make some outrageous offers for ships. Perhaps SHIP trading should be tweaked, as I'm sure starbases count as ships to the game.

If this is so, and clearly the AI did not accept was was easily a no brainer deal with the colony ship, it stands to reason that the trades for other ship types would also be skewed to the same degree.

sheesh.. I am not bashing anything, i'm saying the AI in regards to at LEAST ships is skewed to the unreasonable, and was simply curious if there were any plans to tweak it.

fleabitfox

A little more playing around.. I can only assume some ship types are vastly tweaked to the neigh impossible in the 'trade for' category.

For instance.. I offered ALL my systems at this point in the game (12), and those 4 trade goods.. for one empty colony ship en route to nowhere, and was given the 'This is a good deal HOW?' text. Uh huuuuh. I would consider this a good deal.

A freighter and a defender went for 1 trade good.. they apparently are willing to part with them. But not 2 freighters. Colony ships and Starbases perhaps for cheese or loophole reasons are considered taboo to offer up for trade it seems, at least for the Yor.

Any other weirdnesses anyone has found? I'll have to load some other games and see what other ships are considered taboo to trade.

fleabitfox

One way to take out an annoying starbase! Position on of your ships that has enough firepower to take out the starbase beside it. Trade the ship to a race that is at war with the starbase's owner. Park a constructor beside it before making the trade. Most, but not all, of the time the new owner of your ship will destory the starbase. You get the benefits of the trade package, you don't have to get into what may be an untimely war, and you get to gobble up the resource!

~SDC~

Fleabitfox --

Constructors, colony ships and starbases are meant to be nigh-unbuyable in order to prevent cheese such as buying off that colony ship that's about to grab a PQ26 world that you want. It'd be nice if they instead worked it so that worth factored in proximity to target, but there'd still be some probable cheese methinks.

IMHO

Economy
Military
Research
Morale
Influence

Maxed Econ resource gives +34% to EmpireBonus
Revenue=FreeRevenue+TaxRate*PopulationTax*(1+EconB
onusFromBuildings)*(1+EmpireBonus/2)*GovernmentModifier

Maxed Morale resource gives +19 to planetary morale (data from patch 1.02.042) - only 35% of Entertainment Network bonus (+54 Morale). It gives +5% tax rate if taxes was 50%, so +10% increase for (TaxRate*PopulationTax).

Maxed Research resource gives no less than 50% free research (from same spending).

~SDC~

Oops...
Econ resource gives +34% to income
Revenue=FreeRevenue+TaxRate*PopulationTax*(1+EconB
onusFromBuildings)*(1+EmpireBonus/2)*GovernmentModifier
Where EmpireBonus - sum of starting bonuses to econ, wonders, techs and econ resources (so it's Economy bonus in stats).

~SDC~

>> The problem is that now that he has accurately assessed the true value of that resource...he won't actually exploit it. I RARELY have ever seen the AI bulk up a starbase to the maximum mining potential their tech will allow. I'm sitting on starbases that are +40-50% mining, and they're at +15% <<

I did find that the Drenghin in the game i'm playing now have maxed their two(?) military resources. Fortunately I have three now (how many in a Gigantic universe?) so I've been able to catch up.


~SDC~

DMF, I've seen up to nine (and managed to grab 7 of them early on) on a gigantic map, but I'm pretty sure that was a fluke, as there weren't more than 3 of any other resource type.

So what's constant between galaxy sizes, the total number of Resources, vice the number of each? (From memory, there's 6 Tech, 3 Morale, 2 or 3 Econ, and maybe 4 Culture. Again, Gigantic.)


~SDC~

I think that a total number of resources is a constant for a galaxy size, but type of resource is random.

~SDC~

The ai is rigged to be greedy at higher difficulty levels.
You won't be able to sell a trade good for 20bc at incredible levels (depending on your diplomacy skills of course).
As for economic resources, I realized that in fact on small maps they are pretty useless as I always run 0% tax, 100% funding thanks to trade only... So on such a map, an econ starbase is worth near to nothing.