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economic bonuses still do not pay

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economic bonuses still do not pay

from Stardock Forums
hello again,

a few days ago I started a thread concerning economic bonuses that do not enhance your economy in any way.

A few friendly people had experimented and noticed bonuses, and somebody suggested truncation errors or the bonus being only on the pop. part of economy, not concerning income from PQ.

Thanks, pals, but I'm still not convinced that they work. I have experimented myself with +50% economy and without it, and I can't notice any difference _anywhere_ in my income. Even when your pop grows, if there is a difference, I could not notice it. I tried measuring turns it took to produce a Colony Ship and so on, no difference.

I think that if it reads in the manual and in-game, that "you get +50% bonus to your economy", it _should_ show up in a way that leaves no ground to speculation, and it _should_ work straightforwardly by giving you +50% more money for everything. It is not acceptable for the game to apply only the PQ part, apply only when your pop is big enough, apply secretly somewhere or anything. A feature like this should be set in stone, no excuses, no secrets.

Could somebody of Stardock maybe comment on this? Where is the economic bonus applied, or is it applied at all? Why isn't it shown to the player? In the previous thread, some ~15 other people didn't have any hard-proof evidence of it working, so I'm not the only one who can't see where it is.
1,368 views 45 replies
Reply #26 from Stardock Forums Top
Disclaimer: I'm not continuing the debate over knowing the formulas. I'm addressing the economy issue being broken or not working the way I'd like it.

But I'm sure we all consider it A Bad Thing that when a new player starts playing GalCiv, he is faced with zillion +x%s to something, and they do not work _as_he_expects_? In my opinion, if the game tells player that you get +50% economy, it should then be +50% to your economy and nothing less. Giving such non-information only misguides beginners. That's why I'm calling it broken. Publish the formula or stop distributing false information, please. That's enough for me on this issue.
Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top
Valamir, looking at your submitted game history, I can guess WHY you might say economy rules. Large and huge maps... more worlds, more of a chance to see that subtle effect. I prefer mid and large maps. Not as many worlds, and therefore, research and morale bonuses are easier to see the effects.

I'm sure general play styles must affect it as well. And then there is the random, which resources did you get? effect...

A +15% economy bonus on a resource? You mean the ultimate resource mining bonus, or the mid level freighter bonus?
Star Control: Origins
Reply #28 from Stardock Forums Top
Star Pilot:

Yeah different map sizes produce dramatically different games. I played a small map once, and am considering doing it again just for a change of pace, but it wasn't that enjoyable for me. My style of play in most of these 4X games is to be a builder, build up infrastructure get a secure base of operations and then engage in surgical action...military conquest or, in the case of Gal Civ or CivIII, cultureal conversion. I'm kinda in the mood to challenge my paradigm with another small map game, especially since I've gotten too busy to spend the 15 or so hours to do another Huge map just now. But usually my strategy is to survive until I've built myself into a juggernaught, and that requires Economic dominance which provides the flexibility to then dominant whichever category I choose to compete in. Definitely a long term strategy, and +15% Econ is definitely a bigger deal on a map with 50 colonies than one with 5.

The resources make a huge difference. Most times I decide which type of victory to go for based on which combination of resouces I get my hands on.

I don't pay much attention to what the Constructor options are actually named (Hyper Ultra Zeta Mining Extraction center things)...If I remember right they go 5% 7% 3% 10% 8% 15% or something like that on resource mining. i.e. the actual bonus from the Econ resource not the trade bonus (10% 15% 25%).
Reply #29 from Stardock Forums Top
Ah. Well, most of the time, you would be adding +15% straight up to an already fully developed resource then, and that makes for a huge effect. Research resources being maxed out have an even BIGGER effect, as it is so easy to have big research bonuses on your worlds by then. Adding +15% research mining bonus to a huge empire will generally shave 2 turns off making dreadnaughts, and 1 off of constructors, from what I've seen in my games. That's with the resource bonuse being +50% of the bonus being free versus research being 1/3 costs + 2/3% free... I'd hate to imagine the effects on economy over a huge to gigantic map size empire...
Reply #30 from Stardock Forums Top
Disclaimer: The following is not likely to happen, but . . .

It would be a nifty option to set how much information you are given. I personally would like to have almost everything at my fingertips, but some people would get a kick out of having finances updated say, every ten turns. Between then there would be projected updates, and those wouldn't always be accurate. The same could be used for research times, ship build times, etc. Like I said, only some people would like this, but it would dramatically change the feel of the game. Heck, apply this fuzzy model to ship ETAs (if they are ever added). Silly, but kind of cool.

For that matter, it might be fun to have the actual number be a bit flexible. A random factor for projects, build times, etc. I would only even consider praising such things if it were entirely optional.

Just a thought. It has been a long week. :)
Reply #31 from Stardock Forums Top
Sorry Star...something about your post I'm not able to parse correctly. Could you rephrase?
Reply #32 from Stardock Forums Top
#30 - way cool idea. It should be mandatory. Much more realistic - "it takes between 5 and 8 turns to make a defender, sire - shall we start work?" I think the uncertainty would add a lot of quality missing in this genre. Some players would prefer chess-like clarity: let them play chess.

~SDC~
Reply #33 from Stardock Forums Top
I like Micheal's "vague-data" approach as well.

I wonder to what extent people's game preferences correspond to their work/course of study. Are engineers and programmers more likely to prefer highly calculable games, while historians and psychologists tend to prefer a more intuitive model?
Reply #34 from Stardock Forums Top
Could be Brian.
I'm an investment manager by trade.
lord knows that's a "fuzzy logic" business that balances art with science in equal measure.
Reply #35 from Stardock Forums Top
Economy tests

1) Economy bonus from buildings
In test planet population = 1000
Free Revenue is substracted from each number in this table (it was 4 for this planet PQ), so Free Revenue is not affected by economy bonus from buildings.

Tax - minimum Tax Rate where Revenue equal to a listed number - say in 1st coloumn revenue from population with tax 52% equal to 9, and with tax 53% revenue from population equal to 10.

Econ 0% 100% 200%
Tax Rev Rev Rev
0 0
3 0 1
6 1 2
11 2
16 3
22 4
27 5 10 15
32 6
38 7
43 8
48 9
53 10 20 30
59 11

Results: Economy bonus from buildings gives it's bonus to taxes from population in 1:1 ratio (some difference perhaps because of rounding).
Revenue=FreeRevenue+TaxRate*PopulationTax*(1+EconBonusFromBuildings)

FreeRevenue - based on PQ
PopulationTax - based on planetary population
EconBonusFromBuildings - sum of econ. bonuses from buildings

~SDC~
Reply #36 from Stardock Forums Top
Modemboy's tests have nothing to do with population, he specifically stated he didn't run the game, just created one and grabbed the stats. All his numbers are from base population.

The +economy bonus is clearly based strongly on the population portion of your economy, my test showed that conclusively.
Reply #37 from Stardock Forums Top
I think vocation and recreation are closely related. I'm a political science major, and spend a lot of time studying economy, so this is all very interesting to me. :) I want to run some tests too.

Also, I don't see a problem with publishing formulas on how bonuses function. I don't think Stardock should be handing us the formulas on a silver platter, but if players discover them and want to use them, then by all means they should do so. If you want more chaos, go play Total Annihilation (STILL the best RTS) or a FPS that depends more on reflexes. And it's rarely possible to know all the variables, especially in a gigantic galaxy where you can't even see all the other civs. So find out as much as you can, and, in an ideal world where we don't have to go to work on Monday, carefully calculate out each decision to achieve perfect victory. Or not. It's up to you.

As for the 'Fuzzy Logic' idea of uncertain production queues, ay, spare me. I have enough trouble keeping track of things in my empire as it is, the last thing we need is more uncertainty. GalCiv already excels at being unpredictable through random events that _actually_ have an impact. In principle, it's realistic, but on the other hand, any good Empire will whip its contractors until they stick to a deadline. ;)



~SDC~
Reply #38 from Stardock Forums Top
My modem dropped connection and i forgot that i don't posted 2nd test results.

Test 2

Empire economy bonus

Revenue from population = 10
(I changed taxes to get this result)
Bonus 0
Tax 53

Bonus 20
Tax 49
RealBonus=(53/49)-1=0,081632653 or 8.02%
RealBonus100=RealBonus*100/Bonus=0,408163265 or 40,82% for bonus 100

Bonus 30
Tax 47
RealBonus=(53/79)-1=0,127659574 or 12.77%
RealBonus100=RealBonus*100/Bonus=0,425531915 or 42.55% for bonus 100

Bonus 50
Tax 43
RealBonus=(53/43)-1=0,23255814 or 23.26%
RealBonus100=RealBonus*100/Bonus=0,465116279 or 46,51% for bonus 100

Results - Empire economy bonus is nonlinear, gives less than it's value
Free Revenue (from PQ) is not affected by Empire economy bonus too.

~SDC~
Reply #39 from Stardock Forums Top
Edit: bonus 30
RealBonus=(53/>)-1=0,127659574 or 12.77%

~SDC~
Reply #40 from Stardock Forums Top
What the hell??? Insane forum.
RealBonus=(53/47)-1=0,127659574 or 12.77%


Test 3
Empire bonus + Building bonus

Code
  3. Pop 5000
  5. Emp Econ 50% Emp Econ 30% Emp Econ 0%
  7. Econ 0% 100% Econ 0% 100% Econ 0% 100%
  9. Tax Tax Tax
  11. 56% 42 52% 19 54% 17
  13. 54% 41 50% 18 51% 16 32
  15. 53% 21 47% 17 48% 15
  17. 52% 40 33 44% 14 28
  19. 51% 20 39 44% 16 32 41% 13
  21. 49% 38 31 38% 12 24
  23. 48% 19 37 41% 15 30 35% 11
  25. 47% 37 29 32% 10
  27. 46% 18 36 39% 14
  29. 44% 35 39% 14
  31. 43% 17 34 36% 13
  33. 41% 16 32 33% 12
  35. 38% 15 15 31% 11
  37. 36% 14 14
  39. 33% 13 13
  41. 31% 12 12


Results - bonus from buildings multiplies with empire bonus.

Revenue=FreeRevenue+TaxRate*PopulationTax*(1+EconBonusFromBuildings)*(1+FunctionEmpireBonus(EmpireBonus))

Where FunctionEmpireBonus - unknown function

~SDC~
Reply #41 from Stardock Forums Top
Well i'll post tables on Apolyton tomorrow.

Test 3 - 1st part of results

Trying to get rid of rounding errors

Rev 17
Bonus Tax Eff%
0% 54
10% 51 6%
20% 49 10%
30% 47 15%
40% 45 20%
50% 43 26%

More likely that Empire bonus to econ is linear and effectively gives half of it's bonus

Revenue=FreeRevenue+TaxRate*PopulationTax*(1+EconBonusFromBuildings)*(1+EmpireBonus/2)

~SDC~
Reply #42 from Stardock Forums Top
Ok i posted tables on Aployton http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85148

Data about Taxes, Population and Morale must be correct now.

Also i got some interesting results with research, but they are uncomplete for now.

~SDC~
Reply #43 from Stardock Forums Top
Ellestar:

I think I read the tables right, but correct me if I'm wrong. . . did it show that that the building econ modifiers (stock market, banking center, etc) give their bonus AFTER calculating the empire wide bonus?? In other words, if you base population taxes on a planet were 100, the actual bonus to your population taxes was 50% (so now you're at 150 taxes), then building a banking center would give you 180 taxes instead of just 170? That would be awesome! That would mean that those econ picks would be much more worth it at the beginning of the game.

Thanks for your calcs Ellestar!
Reply #44 from Stardock Forums Top
Yes you are right.

~SDC~
Reply #45 from Stardock Forums Top
What I meant was:

Banking Center is normally 20% econ, so I would expect that if the empire wide bonus was 50%, and my base taxes on the planet were 100, I should only get 70% increase (50%+20%). But it looks like your results show that I would get (50% + 20%*(1+50%)) = 80%

The same thing happens with planet quality, if you have a planet with base PQ of 20, then get a +20% and another +20%, you would expect it to be a straight 40% bonus, making your PQ 28 (20*(1+40%)), but instead it goes to PQ 29 (20*(1+20%)*(1+20%))