Larry Kuperman Larry Kuperman

Jews and Muslims

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Jews and Muslims

JCS Visit to a Masjid

http://www.mca-aa.org/
from JoeUser Forums

As regular readers of my blog know, I teach 8th Grade and Adult Education classes at the Jewish Cultural Society (JCS) of Ann Arbor. Today the 8th Grade and the JCS Youth Group visited the Muslim Community Association (MCA) of Ann Arbor.

First, let me give the abbrobation due to the kids and their parents who attended. They gave up time on a beautiful Sunday morning, perhaps one of the last that we will see in Michigan this year, to learn about another faith. It should also be noted that during the process of setting up our visit NOT ONE PARENT OR MEMBER WAS LESS THAN ENTHUSIASTIC IN LENDING THEIR SUPPORT. (Capital letters intentional and deserved!)

We were met at the door by Kristine and Loretta, two teachers at the school. The MCA shares buiding space with the Islamic Center, a school and an active Sunni Islamic congregation. Our students were given a handout listing the Six Aricles of Faith of Islam and the Five Pillars of  Islam. The Five Pillars are Shahada (Witnessing of Faith), Salat (the five daily prayers), Zakat (charity), Seyyam (Fasting) and Hajj (pilgramage to Mecca).

Once the fundamenetals had been disccussed, our discussion expanded to a variety of topics, religous, political and personal. Both women had converted to Islam from Christian backgrounds and were willing to share their personal experiences.

Towards the end, we discussed the Middle East Peace process. This was not the forum for a discussion of political detaik, but we all agreed that the current situation is unbearable and that peace is a necessity.

The adults of the world can't seem to agree; perhaps the coming generation will be more successful.

It was a wonderful day and a step toward Tikkun Olam, the healing of the world.

Shalom/Salaam to all.

jewish muslim peace
7,925 views 36 replies
Reply #26 from Stardock Forums Top

I am well pleased with the direction that this discusssion has taken and thank you all for posting, most especially my esteemed colleague Leuki for contributing so much.

It would be terribly remiss of me not to respond to Dr. Guy's comment above, for which I am most grateful. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I truly believe that, as Edmund Burke is supposed to have said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for a few good men to do nothing." The organization to which I belong, the JCS of Ann Arbor, is all about teaching our kids that individuals and small groups can bring about positive change.

We don't know yet what the next steps will be. We know that we have opened the channels of communication and that are looking for ways to continue the dialog.

Reply #27 from Stardock Forums Top

But there is a large number of Arabs who want to see all Jews dead. That was the rallying cry in the wars against Israel. How is peace possible between Jews and those who want to kill Jews?
I don't see it.
End of quote

of course you wont see it if you believe the statement preceding it.

I am not going to comment too much on this since we did that before .... you may remember . In fact i outlined it in an article titled "proposal for the promised land" ....

what i will say, however is this:

your view regarding the arabs "want to see all jews dead" is absolutely, categorically dead wrong. ... That is why i said in my first comment " sure it is wonderful ... when reality actually is realized and bias and political agendas are dispensed with..."

as you yourself conceded, the whole problem is political. and in politics, hyperbole is rampant and statements of political figures are taken literally ONLY when convenient.

the nonsense you hear about "destroying Israel" ... is very similar if not identical to what we here in the USA used to say "destroying the evil empire".... these are all political slogans and do not mean that the people in those countries are the target of destruction

Did we really want to destroy the people of the USSR? ... apply the same to any statement regarding "destroying Israel".... it is political slogans ... no more no less.

The arabs and Muslims in general never had this vicious desire to destroy any one .. let alone Jews and Christians whom they are REQUIRED by their religion to protect ....

this fact is really beyond question throughout history ... when Jews were expelled from Europe ... their only refuge was always the arab world .... Egypt, morocco, Iraq, Syria and palastine of course... and they lived there safe and prsperous ....

i know you do not believe any of this ... that is up to you of course....i can just tell you i am speaking from first hand knowledge ... not perception, bias, or anyother desire to misstate the facts on the ground.

when Israel was created ... things changed much ... but that is toward the political entity ... not the people ...

if you keep that in mind .... things can and should change back to the good old days there if and only if a mutually-satisfactory solution could be found for the problem.

but even if the problem stays ... trust me ... no one knows more than the arabs how the good old days of coexistence of arabs/jews/christians can produce the best in the three of them.

Star Control: Origins
Reply #28 from Stardock Forums Top

Incidentally, the Kurdish Muslims in northern Iraq were mostly very happy to meet a Jew.
Islam is clearly not the problem.
End of quote

sorry if i dont live-up to my promise not to comment too much here... but i have to say something about Leauki's staments here:

HEEEEEYYYAAAA finally the fact prevailed ... :thumbsup:

that shows us all that reasonable discussions always reveal the truth ....

Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top

KUwait anyone? And they would still be there had not others kicked them out.

And Syria? (For current events). No, it is not for lack of desire that the arab states have not conquored others, but for lack of opportunity. And where the opportunity has presented itself, they have not hesitated. Indeed, it was Syria, Jordan and Egypt who tried it and failed.
End of quote

I did not say "That enforced the military occupation of another country", but "That enforce", present tense.

As I said, it's not about what the the people in those countries really want, but how they see the situation. In their mind, Israel is in the wrong, and is not acting properly to bring peace. Wether you agree with them is irrelevant to the point, go argue with THEM.

Reply #30 from JoeUser Forums Top

your view regarding the arabs "want to see all jews dead" is absolutely, categorically dead wrong. ...

End of quote

First of all, it was about _many_ Arabs, not _Arabs_ as such.

Second, it is NOT absolutely, categorically wrong.

The Arabs did invade Israel several times with the stated goal to kill all the Jews. Arab radio stations were chanting "Death to the Jews!". Heck, Arab television even has children's television show that instruct Arab children to kill Jews. I would say that "absolutely, categorically wrong" is a bit strong a statement given those facts.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, an Arab leader at the time, said in 1944 (in Berlin):

"Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."

A PLO spokesman said before the six day war about the planned attack about the Jews:

"Those who survive will remain in Palestine. I estimate that none of them will survive."

And when I was in Iraq the Kurdish lieutenant warned me not to tell anybody further south that I was Jewish. He seemed worried. He apparently didn't know that claims about many Arabs wanting Jews dead were "absolutely, categorically wrong".

Similarly, when Hizbullah shelled my university ("resistance" against Jewish students, no doubt) and called for all Jews to assemble in northern Israel so they could be killed, could surely be understood as a wish to kill Jews.

So I suggest until Saudi-Arabia changes its laws to remove the death penalty for Judaism, Hamas and their ilk give up the "death to the Jews" stuff, and Kurdish lieutenants are no longer worried about their Arab citizens further south attacking Jews, we stick with the concept that the idea that many Arabs want to kill all the Jews is indeed NOT "absolutely, categorically wrong".

Also see http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1877.htm (Gaza television).

He is not talking about "destroying Israel" in the sense that the US "destroyed" the Soviet Union (i.e. the country still exists and the people are alive). He is talking about his belief that all Jews must be killed. And lots of people in the Arab world support that view.

 

 

Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top

HEEEEEYYYAAAA finally the fact prevailed ...

that shows us all that reasonable discussions always reveal the truth ....

End of quote

What do you mean "reveal"?

I had absolutely no doubt that I would be totally safe in northern Iraq. I also had absolutely no doubt that my Aram room mate in Haifa U was friendly. (In fact we had many discussions about religion.)

But I also don't have a doubt that I wouldn't be quite as safe in random Arab cities.

 



no one knows more than the arabs how the good old days of coexistence of arabs/jews/christians can produce the best in the three of them.

End of quote


I do not necessarily doubt their knowledge as much as I doubt their conviction.

The civil war of Arabs fighting Christians in Sudan is thankfully over. But Iraqi Christians are still fleeing the Arab part for the Kurdish part.

Bethlehem used to be a Christian town, it is now 80% Muslim.

Egyptian Christians are being harrassed and their churches attacked.

There are no Jews left in Arab countries except for a small community in Morocco and Tunisia and 25 individuals in Bahrain. Most fled beginning in the 1930s with the rise of Arab nationalism.

The Kurdish lieutenant told me that the last Jew fled the Sulimeiniya area in the 1930s or 1940s.

Did you ever wonder why despite the often-quoted peaceful co-existence between Jews, Muslims, and Christians in the Arab world, Christians kept fleeing Arab countries and 95% of Jews now live in Israel, America, and Europe?

 

Reply #32 from JoeUser Forums Top

As I said, it's not about what the the people in those countries really want, but how they see the situation. In their mind, Israel is in the wrong, and is not acting properly to bring peace. Wether you agree with them is irrelevant to the point, go argue with THEM.

End of quote

Well, they see a fantasy. Israel cannot change their fantasies.

Seriously, Germans had all sorts of weird beliefs about Jews, Gipsies, and Americans. Those beliefs didn't change because America, Hipsies, and Jews changed their behaviour.

They changed because Germany was beaten to bits.

Many Germans still have those beliefs and you can still find extremely right-wing (and extremely left-wing) parties organising anti-American (and anti-Israeli) demonstrations. But Germans do not go to war over it any more.

And apart from that incident in the 1980s when Germany sold poison gas to Saddam Hussein, Germans have been pretty good in the genocide-avoidance too.

 

Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top

I did not say "That enforced the military occupation of another country", but "That enforce", present tense.

End of quote

Morocco is occupying Western Sahara NOW, present tense.

Syria is occupying large parts of Kurdistan.

Only last month did Syria acknowledge that Lebanon is indeed another country and not a part of Syria. But "Palestine" is still a part of Syria, according to Syria.

You might say that Kurdistan is not "another country". But then neither is "Palestine".

 

Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top

I truly believe that, as Edmund Burke is supposed to have said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for a few good men to do nothing." The organization to which I belong, the JCS of Ann Arbor, is all about teaching our kids that individuals and small groups can bring about positive change.
End of quote

One man cannot do a lot.  But one man can start a movement which can.  Dont know who started it, but your group is headed in the right direction. 

I did not say "That enforced the military occupation of another country", but "That enforce", present tense.
End of quote

True and that is why I qualified my answer.  But you still missed Syria.  It is not the lack of desire that so few examples are present today, it is lack of opportunity.

Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top

But you still missed Syria.  It is not the lack of desire that so few examples are present today, it is lack of opportunity.

End of quote

Actually, there is a lot of opportunity and a lot of examples.

It's just that we have defined away the problem by deciding what the borders should be (except in the case of Israel for some reason).

Opportunities are abound, especially since the same people who criticise Israel for the "occupation" (which costs Israel a lot of money and is not wanted by Israel) never criticise the others.

When people scream about "the occupation", do they mean Syria's occupation of Kurdistan? Or do they mean Sudan's occupation of Darfur and Nubia? Did they mean Syria's occupation of Lebanon or Iraq's occupation of another part of Kurdistan?

 

Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top

But on the other hand, they see Israel as the only country that military enforce the occupation of another territory.
End of quote

Really? Your folks are Native American?

Same with the other countries. Israel don't seem to actually want to make any peace offering, or compromises. They simply roll over their muslim population's opinion when they are bent on doing something. What do you really think the arab countries will see that country on the long run?

I think the key is Israel's attitude toward it's neighbour, and Israel's attitude toward the Palestinians. If Israel acted with a little less aggressiveness and arrogance in their dealing with both, and didn't purposely blew every peace initiative when a fanatic uncontrollable zealot makes a blunder, it would be quite a large step.
End of quote

Too bad you believe the media's presentation of Israel. Maybe you should research the history of the Middle East before expounding on it.

I will never accept a biblical argument for something as important. It's ludicrous to actually base your argumentation on anything religion-related when you are treating about a Religion Vs Religion conflict. Specially if your argument is originating from the Jewish/Christian holy books.
End of quote

OK...How about "It was taken from us and we took it back."? Grow up and realize the Israelis aren't about to leave. THEY built a modern state. What did the Philistines build?

Quoting Cikomyr, reply 12
Israel has never had better connections with Arab countries than today. There is open trade with Gulf countries and Morocco and many Arab countries today accept Israeli passports. Even Tunisia does now and only 30 years ago they were still a PLO base.Still strange that if you have a stamp of Israel on your passport, you may be refused entry into many GCC Countries. How can it be described as "good"?
End of Cikomyr's quote

In fact, in the Arab scholls in ALL the middle eastern nations, Israel does not appear on a single map. THIS is how they are preparing the coming generations. WAKE UP!

Larry, thanks for the story.

I lived in Israel for 13 years, went to Med School there and served in Tzahal. I'd enjoy discussing things with you anytime.