HAW HAW!!!

So do you propose the companies get the pink slip? You must work in never never land. Tell me what company in either the free or your socialist dream world has ever said, "We are losing money, let's keep everyone working though while we drive it into the ground. We can all be unemployed together". Maybe you should advise companies not to hire in the good times. Why give someone a job when you might have to lay him off in the future, right? Gotta luv liberal thinking.

Your references seem directed at the US, well heres one for Canada. When companies start laying off there (and they will), who's going to pay (even more) for the free health care? Sounds like those that have jobs better not get sick.

Nortel is Canadian.

But he is right!  Perception is often stronger than reality, and the perception on Wall Street is that Obama is not going to do things that work, but things he thinks are "fair".  And that has companies running for cover.  Circuit City surprised many by going Chapter 11.  But not the smart ones.  They are just preparing for what they see as the coming major slump - brought on by the new regimes bad policies.

Americans are chumps.  They heard a slogan and voted for it.  Now we have to live with the consequences.  It is time to pull in your horns and weather the storm.  WHich is only going to make it worse.  But when you have a president that thinks the pie is finite and must be divied up, he will make it so.  Stagflation here we come.

I do find your glee to be somewhat disconcerting.  But then I guess you have a reason for it, since your litany is a repudiation of your beliefs as well.

I could extend this to:

Congress though that they could make banks fund everybody's dreams by passing a law and it backfired and wrecked the credit market HAW HAW...

And the banks came to Washington and said "You got us into this, you get us out." and the Congress said "Sure, what's another Trillion, we'll just pass it on to the taxpayers." HAW HAW...

And when it collapsed the Democrats in congress pointed the finger at Bush and everyone believed them HAW HAW...

And McCain said "I'll go and fix it." and added 150B in pork and said "See, I helped".  HAW HAW...

But I'm so tired of all this.  You all got Obama, Obama is here to save you, so leave me in peace.

And the democrats said HAWHAW

Being an American I guess I should be offended.  But all one has to do is see what we pay attention to most and you are right.  Who was voted off American Idol, Dancing with the Stars, Family Guy, etc......  We are very intelligent.

mixed in with all the HAW HAWS try to remember if we get annoyed enough we can still flatten the planet HAW HAW HAW!!!

It also reminds me of a commercial, an old commercial.... for Levi Jeans!

Good Morning World..... Leeeeviiis   HAW HAW   Leeevviiis  HAW HAW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBYgbeT6ciI

Ok, ok, I could not help myself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAgh86j5alI

I am looking for Obama in this one

Good morning fellow Joeusers-

The point I was aiming for with this article was to illustrate the double standard we see developing culturally and politically.

The government is supposed to equalize things as the public defender, not the advocate of a few large companies.

When government stops being the advocate for everyone and gets in bed with big business, this is what you get-

1) Government wins

2) Big business wins

3) You get screwed. Not only do you get screwed, but you'll probably lose your job and healthcare, and then to add insult to injury you're told that it's all your fault anyway as you've now joined the ranks of the "dead-beat stupid poor people" for whom the ills of everything seem to get blamed on. To top it off, losing your economic or financial freedom generally means you've lost your freedom overall. It means that you'll take the first job that comes along and gladly lick the boots of any employer on any terms to make a buck. Just ask the 1.2 million americans who were laid off last year and will have to find a way to make ends meet in a depressed economy!

The reason you get screwed is that the government is no longer going to bat for the public (which it is supposed to do) and is now going to bat for a very small number of very wealthy individuals wanting access to public funds.

If a private company falls on hard times, why does the public have to bail them out?

It's not like it's keeping people employed. These public bailouts have no caveats about retaining staff for employment, SO, these companies get a big chunk of money from the taxpayer then go ahead and fire a bajillion people anyway. Why do we allow this?

When a company is making big bucks, they scream whenever they are taxed that socialism is killing them. All profits must be kept private! it's best for the economy they yell.

Then, when they run into trouble, suddenly their tune changes and suddenly want unfettered access to the same public purse that they have tried very hard to not pay into. And, they should be paying into it, because the society that they exist in (the public, whatever you want to call it) has provided that company with infrastructure, roads, electrical grids, communication networks, police and fire departments and most importantly educated people to work for them.

It's not like the company grew people in the ground and then harvested them to work for it did they?

No, society raised and grew these folks and educated them too, ready to go into the workforce.

So as with all things in life there is a bit of give-and-take, and when it gets out of balance we see what is happening today.

The double standard presently occuring states that if a major corporation (who is a legal person) runs into hard times, the public, that is you and I, must pay out of our pockets so that the shareholders of that company retain it's wealth. This has nothing to do with keeping jobs, as by the time a public bailout comes that company is going to already have or very soon be making massive cuts to it's staff.

Yet, what about the 1.2 million people who have lost their jobs this year? That is 1.2 million who

1) Have no healthcare, therefore joing the 40 million some americans who have no healthcare already (although this 1.2 million is different because the existing 40 milion uninsured were all ilegal immigrants, right???)

2) Have bills to pay, credit cards, auto loans, mortgages, student loans in the tens of thousands of dollars. The student loans part can't be ignored as many companies making cuts will fire the newest employees (depending on company philosophy)

3) Will have a tough time finding a new job as the economy is shrinking big time. In fact, most of them may find work, but it won't be high paying, probably more like a minimum wage job (which we are told is too much money for these worthless poor people as a minimum wage shouldn't exist in the first place) which will be little better than living on welfare in the first place.

Again, sadly, anything I say is spun into some nonsense about democrats vs. republicans, which isn't what I'm getting at.

What I'm getting at is that the government is supposed to exist as the public defender, a role which should generally oppose and reign in business.

This opposition isn't antagonism, it is an equalizer to ensure that a small group of people with a lot of power (say, the board of directors of AIG) is not able to abuse that power over a large group of people (The citizens of the United States, and all the employees and customers of AIG)

Moderateman.... glad to see you've still got your sense of humor!!!

Just something to think about.  If the U.S. auto manufactures go out of business what is going to happen to all the after market, and third party manufactures?  What going to done with these businesses and the folks that work for them,

Hoooo!, I can pretty much asure you that it won't be pretty.

So before you asume that we shouldn't support this bail out, please consider what is going to happen if we don't.  Thank of all the jobs that will be lost.

Now please don't get me wrong, I can assure that I am not in favor of a bail out, however, at this point if we don't the econmy is going to get much worse.

Lee

What happened to all the buggy whip makers when the horse and buggy business tanked?

Dr Guy,

That was a long time ago, and even then we are not talking about several thousand to even tens of thousand indiviuals who will be out of work.

Not saying they won't find work, but how soon will it be, and what will it be like on the econmy where they are living.

I am attempting to look at the long range effects of what is happening, and what the end results will be on the average joe who just lost his job.

Personnelly I have at the moment no worries about myself - retired mil. and Social Security make for a nice retirement.  But there are those who still have to work to make ends meet.  And, if the recession keeps going the way it is; it could become the "D" word.

So even though I am not for the bail outs, I still see the need to do something to help these the are not as fortunate as myself.

As a percentage, yes we are.  As you note it was a long time ago, and the population was a lot smaller.  Companies serve a purpose - to create things for consumers (goods and/or services) that the consumers WANT to purchase.  Once they have outlived their usefulness, the answer is not to prop them up, but to let them die. We dont need a bunch of buggy whip makers.

And we dont need Studebaker, Packard, Nash, and Rambler either apparently.  And those were more recent.  Not allowing the incompetant to fail only assures the incompetant will remain that way.

This just in- candle makers around the country are lobbying congress for an industry bailout, stating that the illumination of the sun for several hours everyday is drastically hurting sales.

If congress doesn't bail out the candle makers, we are told, there will be massive unemployment and the whole nation will suffer imeasurably.

This is nothing new and will only grow...

Yesterday American Express asked for a 3.5 billion dollar bailout....

As if the credit card companies haven't gouged folks enough, now they're wanting to charge the government as well, I wonder what kind of interest rate they'll give, LOL!!!

We can simply look back to the collapse of the USSR. That government kept people employed, making many products that were obsolete or even unnecessary to the economy and we all saw what happened there. Sure their were other factors in play as well (global prices, cold war expenditures), but it clearly shows what can happen if jobs are created and maintained just for the sake of the job, without regard for the demand of the product. In a poker game you can keep giving up your chips to keep others playing, but then nobody, even one with the best hand, wins.

You know, sometimes we can agree.

Yeah I found that amusing too! AMEX should be in the least amount of trouble since you pay the bill in-full each month I know they have that Blue and Plum cards with revolving credit, but it can't come near the number of VISA and Mastercard holders out there. It could be like the older siblings making the youngest ask for ice cream (they come running too if the ploy is successful). If it happens, and I hope it doesn't, I'd love to be the guy on the phone talking to the AMEX representative. "Sir, if this 3.5 billion had been a purchase we could have charged you 19.9% APR, but since this is a cash advance, and you're not a preferred customer, the APR will be 23.9% plus the 3% or $20 transfer fee, which ever is greater. Would you like our credit protection? It's only $1.89 per $1000 on your balance. And lastly, would you like to receive offers from our partnership companies? You can opt out if you decide not to later on". That would be rich!!! I'd love to charge someone 19% interest yet get 4% terms for myself.

Well, that's a fundamental difference in approach & opinion, as well as an oversimplification.  Government should create/promote an environment in which business thrives, or we all suffer.  Appropriate safeguards, such as anti-trust laws & regulatory requirements should of course be in place to minimize the risk of charlatans, but overwhelmingly business benefits when it acts in the interests of its customers - there is a natural incentive to do so as it is, in the long run, a win-win proposition.  Further, the less government interferes with business, the better off we are.

The current mess we find ourselves in is a result of direct government interference & coercion in the financial markets in furtherance of a social engineering project, incenting, in fact forcing, high-risk behavior on the part of financial institutions which would otherwise never have been entertained.  Attempts at artificial manipulation of the financial markets, contrary to sound financial principles, while promising the coerced companies that the government would make good on any losses was a recipe for the disaster we are dealing with now.  No one can seriously believe that AIG or its executives, or any other of the affected companies, intended to fail or to put themselves in receivership.

We should re-establish a climate conducive to business success & growth, whatever it takes to achieve that - it will be our only long-term chance at recovery.  The currently popular narrative about 'greedy Wall Street barons' is a chimera - focusing on that will do nothing to help get us out of this mess.

Exactly. If a credit card company actually succeeds in getting bailed out it will be the mother of all ironies. And I think you're right with the children asking for ice cream thing, if one gets it they'll all want it.

What would push me over the top the most?  If mastercard gets a bailout. Words fail to describe my disdain for them and their despicable practices. A few years back I had a mastercard that I paid off in full, balance owing was actually positive, something like + 1 dollar.

Now, to be fair I should have kept reading the statements that they sent me, but I was a dumb kid (still am!) and so I figured since I had paid off the card in full and wasn't using it for anything, I was safe right?

ha ha ha ha!!!! 

A few months later I got a phone call from some lady who was very.... brusque... shall we say. She informed me that she was from mastercard accounts payable (or whatever it's called) and wanted to know when I could make a minimum payment, and that if I didn't this was my last chance before going to collections.

My balance owing? 80 dollars.

Even though I hadn't used the card for anything, of course there are "administrative fees" you see. And then interest and non-payment penalties kick in the second after those fees are applied and the due date missed.

Anywho, the original "administrative fee" was a whole whopping 10 or maybe 20 bucks, but in a very short time it had ballooned to 80 dollars with all the penalties and interest they incur.

Now, this was no big deal to take care of and I gave the rude lady on the other end of the line quite an earful (for which she later admitted it was a somewhat ridiculous practice to shake down customers like this) but here's the kicker;

If they can wring money out of someone who owes them nothing, just imagine how much grief and misery they inflict on the poor soul who's actually charged something to the card. I used to think credit card horror stories were a myth, but when I researched the utter garbage they pull on people with hidden fees, "sudden death" penalties for missed payments, sudden jacking of interest rates, etc, I can totally understand and empathize with a lot of the folks out there with credit problems.

These companies are little more than goons in suits and the sooner they go, the better off we'll all be!!!

Never heard of the Plum - what are they for?

No.  Defender does not mean agressor.  We still do not have a bureau of future crimes yet.  They should not oppose or reign in anything until such time as it become necessary.  Pre-emptive litigation is not the role of government in America, period.  Although I can see that is where we are headed.

Plum card is for small business, it's relatively new.

I thought that was blue? (I have blue).

The difference between plum & blue is about 12-15psi applied circumferentially.

Doc, here's the link .