Early game balance

from Sins Forums

Okay, first off, I could be wrong on this. It may be that I just suck... but if it wouldn't be too arrogant of me to say so, I don't think that's the problem. I also wasn't sure whether to put this in the general section or beta feedback, but I guess I'll let one of the mods decide about that. I figured here, since I'm suggesting a balance change.

My favorite faction is the TEC. I play them all the time. Problem is, they're useless against a skilled advent player. My friend and I play soase regularly, almost always Advent vs. TEC. He always wins. Always. Most of the time it's in the early game, and it's always because of the Illuminators. They're more than a match for any TEC frigate and, even though they cost more, this does not appear to be enough. In the late game he'll beat me with a death ball, but that's something I'll whine about later.

In any case, I've been able to trounce him with both Advent and Vasari. When I play something other than TEC we're about even. I used to be better with Vasari, but that wore off after a while. So, by all accounts we appear to roughly even in skill, yet I have not once defeated him as the TEC. To me this smacks of bad balancing, rather than a lack of skill.

I have tried just about everything: rushing out carriers doesn't work because even though they're tough and fighters have the right damage type they're just too bloody expensive to build in large enough quantities.

I've tried building bunches and gobs of scouts, which was even less effective than I thought it would be. Just to make sure I wasn't missing anything, I mixed in a few LRM's and light assaults for good measure. They did a little better, but were predictably defeated in short order.

In one half baked attempt I even used a Dunov's EMP combined with a small flotilla of scouts and an even smaller flotilla of carriers. They actually one. Until the second wave of illuminators showed up and they were trounced again.

Which finally leads me to the point: I was looking over the damage types earlier, searching for a cost effective and readily available counter to Illuminators and noticed that there really isn't one for the TEC. The only anti-light ships are carrier fighters and the scout. Both of which have proved nearly useless in my previous attmpts. It then occurred to me that this problem might be solved by just beefing up the scout, so that it's a bit more combat worthy. Not by much, mind you--it's supposed to be a reconaissance craft--but just enough. Perhaps 20% more HP and shields, another point and a half of armor, and a weapon 30-40% more powerful? (This could be way overpowered for all I know. Just throwing some arbitrary numbers out there.) Even with these improvements they'd still have some glaring weaknesses, such as being completely ineffective against capital ships and still being cannon fodder for cobalt, disciples, and skirmishers.

They would be more effective against LRMs, would also allow their scout funciton to double as a colony ship hunter in the early game, and would be an effective detterent to early game siege frigate raids.

So, did I hit or miss? Go on, let me have it.

1,557 views 5 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

I'm going to begin with the caveat that I only have time to play single player, so my thoughts on this matter may not be as relevant as some others'.  However, from what I know of the game, my input is as valid as I say it is (and by no means do I maintain that it is without error).

I've tried building bunches and gobs of scouts, which was even less effective than I thought it would be. Just to make sure I wasn't missing anything, I mixed in a few LRM's and light assaults for good measure. They did a little better, but were predictably defeated in short order.
End of quote

Scouts are, as you've discovered, just too weak.

Trying basic assaults was...attack wise, a better idea for the money than scouts.  Defense wise, though, it was suicide-you're doing 75% damage and taking 150% damage.  (I seem to remember the Illuminators having a non-standard damage type for LRFs, actually, but let's just go with 150% for now.)

Carriers full of fighters wasn't a bad idea, but as you say, they're somewhat more expensive.

Your two remaining options would seem to be LRMs and Kodiaks-but Kodiaks aren't exactly early game.

Javelis outranges Illuminator, and Javelis is frontal gun only, while the Illuminator is split between front and sides.  Based on the LRFs' max speed of 500, you'd have ~6.5-8 seconds of firing on the Illums before they got in range of your LRMs, and LRMs are damage and supply equivalent on a cost basis (roughly).

It then occurred to me that this problem might be solved by just beefing up the scout, so that it's a bit more combat worthy. Not by much, mind you--it's supposed to be a reconaissance craft--but just enough. Perhaps 20% more HP and shields, another point and a half of armor, and a weapon 30-40% more powerful?
End of quote

For the purpose you're intending to use it for (fighting Illums), this would still be underpowered.

Running the raw numbers (which doesn't necessarily account for everything), increasing the scout's firepower by 23.5% to 26% (factoring armor in as hull or factoring armor in as hull/shields) puts it on a roughly equal footing with the basic assault when factoring in ship cost, ship hull/shields/armor, and damage types, in terms of damage done per survival rate per cost.  That is, if you spend ~79-81% of the amount you spend on basic assaults on scouts instead, you'll do the same amount of damage to the enemy illums in terms of fleets.

Do keep in mind that for the sake of keeping things simple (haha, yeah right) I purposely neglected to factor in the 55 metal cost per Cobalt; particularly as I don't tend to agree with what appears to be the rest of the community on what the credit conversion factor would be-so the point where the Cobalts and the Arcovas are equivalent will be closer than I've estimated.

But the point remains that basic assaults, with their 75% damage modifier to LRFs and 150% damage modifier from LRFs, were obviously not designed for that purpose, and scouts are hard pressed to beat even them at it.

So I'd say anything less than a ~70-75% increase in firepower would be insufficient for your needs, and that's...probably not going to happen.

Conclusion: Try Javelis and report back.

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

illums are a lvl 3 tech. if you he's going for it and if the map size is not too huge, you could also try to rush him. get your cap and as many lfs as fast as you can and go straight for his hw.

other than that, the carriers would seem the best option to me. same lvl as illums (except advent themselves). yes, more costly, but also more powerful. just micro them a bit, run them away from the illums, last time I heard the have some trouble catching up to running carriers. if you trouble using carriers in offense, then try crushing him with defense and use repair bays. I seriously cannot imagine how a fleet of lcs supported by repair bays could lose against illuminators, if halfway equal resources are poured into it. if, of course, he has more resource output, well, then that's another problem altogether.

but as I said, the important point with expensive units is that you have to keep them alive in the early phase. a single lc lost is quite nasty early on.

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

I'm not aware of any "pros" claiming that TEC is inferior to the other factions.  I have heard a pro say that TEC was vulnerable in the opening phase of the game if a vasari player were very close to him and rushed him, but that doesn't seem to be your problem.

Try scouts again, but build a TON of them - I mean a TON.  If he composes his fleet of all illums, you should win.  If he has other things mixed in, well, it's more complicated, and scouts alone may not work.  Beef up the scouts too - as much armor, hull, shields, and weapons upgrades as you can.

Secondly, one guy here suggested rushing him.  He's teching to illuminators, and that's 3 military labs.  You can get lrf's in 2.  Heck try a cobalt rush which doesn't require any labs.

Fighters are a good counter, but you will have to build the appropriate numbers of carriers, and micro them.  I know you said they are expensive, but his illums are too, aren't they?

If nothing else, lrf's should put you on par with his illums (built in appropriate numbers, of course).

Finally, your flak frigs should do decent damage against light armor, plus they are cheap, and tough as hell (heavy armor).  Try building as big a swarm of those as you can, and drive them right into the illums.

Match his illum fleetcap with your counters.  If you can afford to, exceed it.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

I'm confused. When people say "scouts", do you really mean light frigates?  I'm failing to see how a scout ship could defeat anything.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Tridus, reply 4
I'm confused. When people say "scouts", do you really mean light frigates?  I'm failing to see how a scout ship could defeat anything.
End of Tridus's quote
Damage types -- scouts have the right damage type for LRMs and Illus.