[IDEA] Stat gain while leveling

Cheers from DOTA! besides, stats are already gained on leveling. Just check the charts some guy made in this forum.

This would be a major change late int he design process, but is very worthwhile to look at.  If there is room for a "5 point" project, this might be a good one.  It would certainly make the demigods very different.  In faxct they could get 3 skill points to add to any stat on leveling, including speed, attack speed, dmg, armor, hp.  It would be nice to build out my demigod very differently than someone else's.

However if there was a "5 pointer" that I have seen recently that I like a bit more than this, it would be randomized items each game with more items added.  It would also be great if they could pull off the 2 ne demigods as a zero day patch.  I think it would show that stardock is a lot like valve. (Although stardock has done very similar things to valve, they don't have a high of a profile right now.)

I can't wait to see the 2 new demigods, but i doubt they will add them in the zero day patch. Frogboy explained in some post that they will modify those 2 new demigods to fill gaps in the strategies used by the communauty (of players and not just beta testers). So they could serve to counterbalance some abuses and such..

Its a brilliant idea, but like Trigi said its a pretty major change in late stages.

How about instead of having one stat upgrade ability, we have 3 or 4?

The first one gives mostly HP/Armour

The second one gives mostly attack speed/weapon damage

The third one gives mostly mana/mana regen.

The fourth one is balanced (as it is now).

This is pretty easy to implemement imo, and would really add diversity into the game - would be great!

Wonder if it is plausible to have a pop up when you click the + symbol currently implemented for a stats bonus, to give you the choice of what you want to level up.  This would only give 5 oppurtunities to level unlike your setup, but it could make things more unique.

Stats do increase when you level.
You passively gain more damage, attack speed, movespeed, health and mana regen, health, and armor.

What you suggest wouldn't really benefit the game at all.  More skills, some skills redesigned, some items redesigned would.

While you say it'd allow you to customize your demigod more, make it more unique.. It wouldn't.  Items do the exact same thing, and only require input every time you level up.

except that you could spend money on minions/citadel and still be able to strengthen your character. plus you only have so much room in your inventory. And while you do passively gain stats, you don't choose where they go. This would let you choose whether to make your character more offensive, defensive, or well rounded. 

You're basically implying that your base stats mean nothing.  As it happens, the last two threads I read involved the Rook's massive HP and the UB's huge speed and damage.  Obviously, those issues had nothing to do with base stats...

The answer isn't always moar sklz, moar itemz, moar shiniezzzzz!1!11  Being able to change how you used your stat bonuses would make a huge difference in builds.  That single change could be realistically comparable to adding two or three more skills to each Demigod.

I may post a more in-depth hypothetical system tomorrow depending on a hundred things, but it is fairly late now.  Innociv, you're wrong here.  Allowing for custom speccs would make for a huge amount of build diversity.  It would be especially great for all those people complaining about the lack of Demigods and how they don't really have many diverse builds.  And its just one, simple thing.

I'm implying that items modify your base stats.  There isn't any point in stats because they do the same exact thing.

Rook's HP too high?  UB dishing out too much damage?  I don't intend to stop it.  If a Rook wants to specc tank, let him pump points into HP.  If a UB wants to specc damage man, let him pump points into weapon damage.  But what points?  Attribute Points.

I propose a second skill tree.  Well, I guess it wouldn't really be a tree, but all upgrades have been laid out in that fashion (skill and citadel).  Basically, it would be an Attribute Tree.  The format which I have devised this is a direct rip from the current upgrade path mechanic.  I believe that it could work better, but I'm keeping with what we have.

Anyway, without further adieu, allow me to present...  MS Paint on a Touchpad!!!

That is the essence of what I propose.  Each level, you get 2 Attribute Points that you can spend on any Attributes with an available level up.  Level requirements for Attributes would be 1-10 and 15 just like skills.  Different levels would cost different amounts of points.

Levels 1-2:  1 Point

Levels 3-4:  2 Points

Levels 5-6:  3 Points

Levels 7-8:  4 Points

Levels 9-10: 5 Points

Level 15:  6 Points

This basically prevents people from spamming everything worthwhile to max level.  With this system, you would get 40 total points in a game.  Maxing out a skill would cost 21 Points.  This is a drastic change from the current system.  You could only really fully upgrade one attribute line.  You wanted Demigods to have multiple roles?  Strengths and weaknesses?  You can pick your poison.

So what would you get for fully upgrading a line?  For most Demigods, I would have to say a greater effect than if it was currently lv20.  It could be coming earlier, yes, but it would also be coming at a much higher cost.  They wouldn't be lv20.  They might be doing lv20 damage, but they would have awful health and no manna at all.  They might be able to tank through everything, but they wouldn't be able to cast many spells or hit very hard.  (This system would allow the Rook to keep his huge 8k HP... if he fully upgraded it.)

But this system can really take a turn for Generals.  In short:  Unit Upgrades.  I propose that, in addition to the General's ability to upgrade his/her own stats that they should be able to upgrade Minion stats.  I think Generals should get 3 Points per level in order to help manage this, as all the upgrades would come from the same point pool.  If you wanted to make an Assassin-General, then you could compensate for his lower stats by pumping all your Attribute Points into your character.  If you wanted an unstoppable army, you could boost your minion health and damage...but don't forget to upgrade your own HP!

The current Morale/Enhanced Stats (or whatever it is called) would basically turn into a free Attribute level.  If you selected this on the skill screen, you would simply gain however many Attribute Points you would normally gain on a level up (2 for Assassins, 3 for Generals).

That's it.  Its really that simple.  Unfortunately, I kind of lack some important knowledge.  What stats are actually increased when you level up?  I'm assuming HP/Regen, Manna/Regen, and Damage/Atk. Speed are all increased (at least, I'm fairly sure about Atk. Speed).  What else is upgraded?  What else could we include for upgrading?  Armor?  Movement speed?  I currently balanced it assuming that HP/Regen, Manna/Regen, and Damage/Atk. Speed are the only things upgraded.  If other things are upgraded and/or could be upgraded, then things should definitely become cheaper.

Of course, everything is hypothetical.  Don't tell me its a stupid idea because my numbers are off.  Tell me what numbers you would use instead.  This is just a rough outline.

But why do you want to have to view the stats screen and raise points every minute of the game?  It seems senseless.  It's enough having to click to buy 10 items over the course of the game, i don't want thatdoubled.

Wait... You're opposed to the system because you have to click too much?  Hmmm...  Oh wait, I specifically addressed that!

I agree that there are better ways to present it, however this is the format used repeatedly throughout the game.  If they are willing/able to change it then more power to them.  But honestly, you're opposed to the idea because you have to click too much?  Even my cpm isn't that bad.

random_guy, that's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. Thanks for a great post.

I still ahve to press C every level.

How does this improve customization in a way items can't?  If you want a rook to be able to specialize in more health, you can buy a +health item.  If you think Rook needs more health, then +health items can be buffed..  But, he doesn't need more.

A better solution would be items that give a lot of +health, but subtract damage, I think.

No reason you can't have both is there, innociv?  I want a Rook with very high health, so I build his stats that way.  That takes away from my damage potential though so I invest in + damage items.  It's just another avenue of customization, like the excellent item upgrade system you posted about a long time ago..

It increases build choice tremendously and it isn't extremely difficult to implement.  I say aye

But.. do we have a lack of choice now?  If we do, it's the fault of items and skills, not lack of stats. :/

I guess I just don't see how this will improve the game more than improved items and improved skills will.

Stats are usually in mmo's and rpg's more for item requirements.  Which they make sense for there.  You are kept from having really high armor stats because you need al ot fo str for that big sword.  But I'd HATE there to be stat requirements on items in Demigod.

The only game who's stats I really liked is Guild Wars.
  In guild wars you dont' have str, dex, mana, or any of that.  Every maxes at level 20 and has the same max health, same max damage, same max mana.  You can get +health, +mana, +armor from armor, and +mana, life leach at the cost of health degen, and so on on your weapons.
  It's stats are like "Fire magic" which is 1-12 points and all your fire skills don't have levels, they're dependant on your 'Fire Magic" attribute.  So basically if Fire Magic is level 12, all your fire skills aare level 12.

  But such a thing wouldn't work in Demigod, just like I think any stats wouldn't work.
  I don't think the devs didn't put stats in Demigod because they didn't feel like it, or didn't have time.  It shouldn't hardly take any effort to add in points you gain per level to spend on buttons which raise health, mana, hps, mps, damage, armor.  I imagine Tyo, Scathis, or any of the other designers realised it'd pretty much add nothing to the game and it'd just be fluff.

I would never go for that either.

The idea here is more that you take the passive line of stats upgrades every DG currently has and split it into its constituent parts.  You also make it free.  That way every level when a DG picks a skill he can also pick a line of developement for things like maximum hitpoints, base damage, or base mana, but he can't max out all of them.. 

Maybe it's "fluff" but I don't think so...

I think we have a lack of choice because of how much money we have to pour into the citadel and, for generals, buying minions. This way you can customize your characters stats without having to buy items. I often find myself pouring all my money into the citadel and not buying any items until very late game, if at all.

I agree with you.  Having 30 perfectly balanced Demigods with 20 perfectly balanced skills and being able to choose from 500 perfectly balanced items to play on 50 different maps would be amazing.  However, that isn't going to happen.  Something like customizable attributes has actual potential for being implemented.

You say that this is "fluff" and items do everything already... then how come every Demigod doesn't hit 8k at the end of the game?  If it was all down to items, then the Rook wouldn't be alone with his huge HP bonus.  Go try to play like the Unclean Beast using Erebus, or make a tank build with Regulus.  It just won't happen.  Why?  Because stats actually make a difference and aren't just "fluff".

Innociv, if you walk into a diner you might be asked if you want to sit in the smoking section or the non-smoking section.  What you are basically saying is that this is enough options.  The customer already gets enough say in where they get to sit.  I'm saying that you might as well ask them if they want to sit outside on the patio.  You are opposed to my idea because you think that smoking vs. non is enough customization, but I am telling you that the extra level of choice, inside vs. outside, should also be given to the customer.  It still changes seating, but it gives them more options and thus makes them happier.

I never said anything of the sort.  I think that would be an awful idea.  The point of customizing your stats would be to... customize your stats.  You could pick health, damage, manna, or whatever.  You wouldn't be increasing your health to meet some arbitrary item requirement, you would be increasing your health because you want more hit points.

i don't get how anyone can oppose this. currently the different demigod builds lack variety. they need, more abilities and need more ways to change stats. 8 deep demigods beats 10-12 shallow ones anyday.

Adding some sort of customization to atrributes would be great, especially if you could change certain abilities stats also, like make boulder roll stronger, or hammer strike(is this the name?) hit softer but cast faster.

so, add abiltity to increase things like armor, health, regens, mana, speed, etc, and allow to do for moves

Well stats arent' goign to give much variaty, unless you make the bonus be huge.

I assumed the original poster and proponants talking about removing the natural hp+hps/mana+mps/attack speed/dmg/armor bonus you get on every level automatically, and making people spend them.

So basically, right now you get 7 stat points per level but the game automatically is putting 1 point in each of the 7 stats.
And the idea is to instead get stat points per level, with hps being combined into hp, and mps being combined into mp..
So you can put all points into HP, instead of the game auto-dividing them..

  Oh, even if this is added, I hate the idea of getting more stats per level unless it costs progressively more points to raise stats "IN 1 point lvl lvl 2 hp, 3 points for lvl 2, 6-for-3, 10-for-4, 15-for-5"  What's the name of that sort of mathematics?  I forget.
   Would be easier to preserve balance by giving 5 points per level.  So you could put all 5 points into HP, instead of the games current function which is essentially like putting 1 point in each attribute each level.  But it'd need some cap, or increase cost per level..

   But see, focusing all your stats into mostly health to be a tank wouldn't be much different from an item that is "+2000 hp, -50 damage"  That's why I don't see the point..  I think the game just needs better items.

   Anyways, I really want to end with this:   People seem to think more things = depth.  Do you think C&C Generals has more depth than Starcraft?  C&C Generals has upgradable units, like you can add a point-defense laser to tanks.  C&C generals has fuel for planes so they have to return to base.  C&C generals has commander abilities.  C&C generals has units that level up.  It has so much more stuff, so it has more depth, and it is better competitively, right?
   No, C&C generals has fluff.  Starcraft has depth.
   I think stat points would just be fluff.  Some stupid thing I have to click and spend the points every minute.

I do see your point innociv. I just disagree. We can agree to disagree, right?

And I was thinking they'd still get a little bonus automatically when they level, but maybe just not as much. Or, since right now different demigods gain stats differently, make them all gain a slight amount in all areas, and you just select which stats you would like to give a greater bonus to.

and having to spend more later on to really increase the stat sounds really good to me.

Having to spend more points on higher levels of stats is a good idea.  Oh wait, I said that...

And you keep insisting that the stat points are fluff.  Just based on stat points alone (no items) you could compleatly change your character.  One of the biggest complaints about Demigod is that the few Demigods available have limited potential.  They are all jack-of-all-trades, of sorts.  They fit very generic, stereotypical roles (mage, tank, healer, etc...).  Allowing the player to divvy up stat points as they will would allow Demigods to be customized to much more specific roles.

The problem with just adding more items is that you have to add items for everything.  Sure, make a +2000 HP, -50 Damage item.  What if you want a +1000 HP, -25 Damage item?  What if you want a +1000 HP, -500 Manna item?  What if you wanted a +20 HP/s, -2000 HP item?  Innociv, start listing all the varying degrees for each item.  Meanwhile, I'll sit here with my customizable stats and wait for you to get as much variety as I have.

   Oh!  My bad.  I thought you were saying you'd GAIN 1 point at level 1-2.. and such.  Not that's the upgrade cost.  I didn't read it enough.

   And I think the limited potential is purely do to the current items and skills.  They need some working.  While adding stats might be a "quick fix", it would be bad in the long run.    And, it wouldn't be much of a fix.

Fair enough.

Although, I am curious as to why you think customizable stats would be bad in the long run.  How exactly do you imagine they would ultimately screw up the game?