General Minion spam strats

You bought this game Doggie???? This strat actually works its especially fun to play with because people don't understand the selling and rebuying techniques. I do!

Yeah, I just tried it with sedna.  AoE healing + huge army + pounce to kill when they realize how much damage you're doing and run away = awesome.

Would love to see how this works out late game for you when high DPS heroes eat your hero alive, since you have nothing on you but idols.

I don't have enough experience with it to say what happens then but it isn't as if you have 6k gold's worth of idols sitting on you.  Every idol should be resold as soon as you summon once from it.  Effectively you are making a one time purchase of the units, the cost being the gold resell penalty.  The few times I've gotten to use it(connectivity has made it kind of hard to develop this much beyond the concept), I've had significant quantities of gold mid game despite having the large army.  It's possible that it's paying for itself through the extra assists and kills I'm getting(which I doubt I'd get as easily against better opponents).  The cost for each pair is 20% of the cost of each idol.  That's 880 gold for a full set of the melee guys, 1040 for a full set of ranged guys and 1440 for the healers.  That's a total of 3360 gold if you go for the whole set of units, basically the same as a couple decent accessories or one really good one.  That's probably too large of an investment to be worth it, I expect a more refined version would go full out for the ranged minions but skimp on the later melee minions(melee minions die more, the early ones are important because of the extra damage though) and some of the healers.  This way your cost total cost would be more in the region of 1500-2000 gold instead of 3k+.  I would imagine having 12 damage dealing units worth the cost of a medium accessory as it's a pretty large boost to your damage output(especially if you also get the hero leveling upgrades from that bottom line so your group is doing +48 damage per upgrade there, +32 if you lose the melee).  This is starting to devolve into theorycraft though.  Hopefully I'll be able to see exactly what needs to be done to refine it once the connection issues are resolved, or if it's viable even when it's refined.

I was on the recieving end of this and it is complete rape. Hats off for beating the system. That being said I'm fairly sure this is an exploit. I'm sure they have bigger issues to be working on at the moment but there really isn't much you can do to stop this early on, it's pretty much bend over and get analized, no lube.

this is a known exploit and they will get round to fixing it so don't get to depend on it too much.

still, it's evil and fun

How the hell is this an exploit?  I honestly don't see how it could be set up this way unintentionally.  The population caps literally have to be set up per subtype and the programmers would have to realize the implication that you could then have two of each subtype simultaneously.  Unless there's supposed to be another mechanism to prevent this(that's bugged and isn't working).  I can't see how this is an exploit.  Exploits require a bug and I can't imagine how this could be a bug, plus this is the only way idols can possibly be worth buying.  Could you direct me to a post of a dev saying it's an exploit and will be fixed?

On the topic of the strategy itself, I think the obvious counter is to try to take down the minions at first instead of the demigod.  Since each minion is an investment in gold that you lose when the minion dies, you cost the opponent gold by taking down his minions.

Doggie,

This definitely does seem like an exploit, doesn't it?  Notice how there are 4 levels of idols and 4 levels of summons.  Each time you put a point in the skill, your current minions upgrade.  They don't just stay the same, allowing you to summon new ones.

Technically, if you farmed up a lot of gold as Sedna, you could have:

• 4 Yetis
• 8 Archers
• 8 Minotaurs
• 8 Priests

Don't you feel like that is a bit of an exploit?  28 minions at your disposal seems like a bit much...

You're summoning them with the idol then selling the idol but keeping the minions. That doesn't seem like a bug? You lose out on a bit of gold, oh noes, you'll make it back in no time flat when you turn people into goo. This is the definition of an exploit, using something unintended to gain an advantage.

Easy fix would be once you sell an idol you lose all the minions related to it.

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/344763

reply #2

Oh and currently it's a tossup whether the gold cost is worth it.  I tend to think it is but a couple of other General players I respect aren't sure, so we'll see

I don't think it seems like an exploit.  An exploit is using a bug to gain an advantage.  Unintentional byproducts of the game mechanics are fair play.  The fact is, someone made a conscious decision to put the limits on the subtypes instead of the generic types.  The direct implication of this in the game is that you'll be able to resell the idols and keep the minions unless there are other mechanisms to prevent it(and there aren't, unless they're completel defunct).  Now I don't know the history of the game's mechanics so maybe this is a relic from previous iterations and was supposed to be changed but it still had to be a conscious decision at some point to code it this way, making it a game mechanic and not a bug.  If it's not a bug, it's not an exploit.

Not really a debate, already been said it'll be fixed as Ke5trel pointed out. I also think it's not always worth depending on the skill of your players, TB or QoT can pretty just put your gold to waste with AoE's if they're careful. A few others can as well. Generally, I think it's a waste they will eventualyl die.

I had it used against me in a match yesterday, an oak, but he never managed to kill me as I kept my life well managed and then I eventually killed them off with Ground Thorns. Didn't help that he couldn't push because he never had creeps, but meh.

Things can be exploits without being bugs. Releasing a game to the general population in effect gives you thousands and thousands (or even millions) more testers. People will find out ways to do things you NEVER intended and your beta testers never found or thought of. You can still be exploiting and taking advantage of something in the game without it being a bug.

An example from EQ1 is Feign Death pulling. They never thought it was a thing, no one ever came up with it in beta. Once the game launched people started doing it eventually to single pull any mob. This was an exploit of the system and was treated as such but verant eventually decided it was fine and built the game around it. But when first discovered it was classified as an exploit even though there was no actual bug involved.

People will figure out shit you NEVER EVER in a million years would have thought of. My motto in games is People are all idiots, but they're all criminal masterminds at the same time. 99% of the people you run into gaming are complete morons who you'd sooner smother than get a beer with, but if there's a way to beat the system they'll find it.

Also, if you look at Ke5trel you'll see that it isn't working as intended and should be fixed. Also classifying it as an exploit.

Exactly...It is one thing to find a new use for something, but having to purchase and re-sell items in order to get their "intended effect" almost screams unintended!

Take, for example, lurkers from starcraft.  Blizzard originally built them as a defensive unit to stop incoming ground units.  They were schocked when, after release, they watched a player overlord drop them onto an unsuspecting player's base.

Nowhere in that scenario does an exploit appear.  The player was being clever and trying a new way of doing things.  Buying one tome, summoning the minions, selling it, buying another one, summoning the minions, selling it, and repeating for 3 different minion types...this definitely is not intended.

The definition of an exploit needs to be limited to bugs.  If any unintentional aspect of gameplay is considered to be an exploit, then the term exploit is essentially meaningless because every imbalance or unforseen synergy between gameplay elements will qualify(both of which are crucial to the continuing evolution of gameplay).

Frogboy's response in that thread was that he agreed with the poster of the thread.  The poster of the thread said it was cheesy, he didn't mention it as an exploit.  Therefore that does not qualify as a stardock post saying this is an exploit.  I don't know whether I agree that it should be changed.  As cerulean pointed out, minion spam is not anywhere near unstoppable.  In fact, at this point, I'd only consider using it with Sedna because you need the passive healing wind to keep minions alive when they're being slammed by area of effect.  I would also say the emphasis should be on archers and to a lesser extent healers.  The melee minions are far too susceptible to area of effect to be worth it beyond the first wave(I may even question their worth in the initial wave at some point).

I believe what he said I agree, we'll put it on the list to changing it to sell the idol lose the minions. He doesn't keep a list of cheese moves, he'd keep a list of bugs and other exploits to be looked at.

Exploits in fact can not be limited to bugs. Do you have common sense? If you do you'd know that if you sold an idol you shouldn't keep the minions, that's a common sense issue. Whether or not you use this tactic or want it to be fixed or not common sense says it shouldn't exist. That can't be argued away. I can't buy a regular (non idol) item and then sell it and keep the effects. If I could that would be complete bullshit and again, anyone with common sense can see that.

Certain things in games just CAN'T be changed. Certain things can't be programmed away for countless reasons. There are strats (or whatever you want to call it) for many games that are exploits, don't take advantage of any bugs but can NOT be "fixed" because the game just won't allow it to be fixed. Not a single bug involved but it'll still get you banned if you do it in those games.

People will use the "it's not a bug" to try and make themselves feel better. It seriously comes down to common sense. Should this be possible? The answer is no. I'm no stranger to exploits, I've got a history of beating the system. I've done things in games that no one has ever done before and has never been done since and when I get banned I'm not surprised at all, I knew it was coming and just a matter of time. Tell yourself what you want to get by but again, if you have any form of common sense you know it's not right.

I still give you my kudos for finding this out, good job on that. It's always fun to find some thing that just shouldn't be, the feeling of beating the devs.

If stardock thinks it's an exploit, they should explicitly state it.  The fact that it's on the list of things to change does not automatically make it either a bug or an exploit.  At most it's a design issue and possibly a balance issue.  These things need to go into lists too you know.

I'm not going to argue anymore about how to define an exploit.  I've stated my position on why it must be confined to bugs to have any useful meaning and I have nothing else to add.  I would like to know what games you're talking about in your third paragraph though.  That way I can avoid them, and their publishers.  I don't have any desire to play games that the developers are too lazy to fix and instead ban anyone who doesn't play the way they think you should.

Then you should avoid every MMO. The complexities of those games plus the limitations of the engines they're based on lead to a plethora of things that can't be fixed. "Fixing" them would require an entire rehaul of the game starting with the bottom. The engines will not let them change certain things because they didn't have the means or the foresight to add them as parameters when they first implimented said engine. Every MMO is plagued by these sorts of things. Little things that can add up in the right hands if you choose to exploit the system.

Most demigods, if not all have an area effect ability that will wipe the floor with 10+ minions at a time, i'm going to treat this as not a biggy, but I can see where 20+ minions is a strong strat.

Not all of them have the ability to do that at low level though. UB can't do it till level 5. Depending on how many people in a game are doing this and how aggressive they are you might not get the chance.

Well even by that logic, buying an item and using its ability, then selling it and still having accesses to its ability is most certainly a bug.
If you could buy boots of Speed for the 10% speed bones, then sell them and still retain the bonus, that would be a massive bug, this is essentially the same.

For a similar example, in WoW, when the Summon Felguard talent was first introduced, it was possible to spec for it, summon the pet, and respec without desummong and retain the pet, this was a huge bug, and Blizzard fixed it by desummoning the pet when you lost the talent, which is probably what will happen here.

But anyway, I could care less about this bug, I usually use players poor micro to kill off their minions whenever they start to retreat anyway.

The ability is to cast the summon spell, not to control the minions once summoned.  A more proper analogy would be with one of the items that incurs a status effect on the enemy.  It's like reselling the item after casting it, and having the status effect remain on for its duration.

No.  Exploit is just what the word says - "exploit," as in the verb "to exploit."  Anything that you are abusing is an exploit, any "trick" that you are using that is unforseen and unintended is an exploit.  Doesn't have to be a bug, in fact most exploits aren't.

Regardless of semantics, it's something that Stardock is looking at for balancing issues. Whether or not it's a bug or an exploit or something else will have little bearing on whether it gets changed or not over balancing issues. Something doesn't need to be a bug or exploit to be unbalanced and something doesn't need to be unbalanced to be a new and unique synergy.

IMO it's not exploiting. The totems only grant you the ability to summon the minions, once summoned they belong to you and not the totems. A smart player will know how to keep is minions alive for as long as possible while a dumb player will have them killed.