Lame Tactic or Smart Insurance?

from Demigod Forums

So, I was playing a 2v2 Conquest game in pantheon on Crucible Friday night. It was Rook(me) & Oak vs UB&TB. I made quick work of capping the two non-xp flags at the beginning of the match, took down one of the first two towers, and then proceded to die...alot. I don't know if I was just sucking or the enemy was teaming up on me perfectly. It seemed I couldn't land a single hit between stuns and UB loaded so many ailments onto me I mostly died from damage over time. It quickly became a game of me and my teammate justing trying to hold them back. Then I noticed Oak had been sending his minions over to their Citadel (possibly from the beginning) and it was at half health (around the time they had pushed us to our 30% flag). Soon after this point, we got priests and they got giants. Well  needless to say, we farmed the hell out of the giants, almost catching up to them in level, and all the while Oak sending the steady stream of minions I was providing over to their citadel. It was close at the end, real close. I was using boulder roll just to stun giants standing at our citadel to slow down their damage while I covered the distance to slam them. Eventually, we won.

So was the Oak-minion-trickle strat lame or a smart move?

(Note: I am not sure if he was sending the minions over before or after I started feeding.)

3,628 views 18 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

Seems like a smart tactic to me, but couldn't it have been countered fairly easily with a few building upgrades from your citadel? 

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

i agree, a few bldg upgrades and you would have regenned that shit no probs.  however im glad you posted...i had no idea that was even half effective. 

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Demigod Forums Top

and good god, sending all his minions away instead of having them harass the shit out of you should have severely gimped oak. 

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

It only worked because they were too dumb to ever upgrade buildings; even basic regen beats minion damage.

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

How does that work?  Most maps have so many towers on them the minions would be dead before they got to the citadel.  I guess I dont know crucible that well. 

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

Yeah I'm pretty shocked that worked. If he kept his minions with him you'd probably have died a lot less.

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

How does that work? Most maps have so many towers on them the minions would be dead before they got to the citadel. I guess I dont know crucible that well.
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Oak's minions can fly, avoiding the chokepoints that allowed us to hold them off long enough for it to work.

Yeah I'm pretty shocked that worked. If he kept his minions with him you'd probably have died a lot less.
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Yeah, like I said in the OP, I am not sure if he did it from the start causing me to feed, or did to compensate because I was feeding.

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

Yeah, the opposing team really should have noticed and got an upgrade or two... I can just imagine what they were thinking when their citadel went down.

 

:fox:

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

I think they actually noticed a decent amount before it went down, but wonder if they had already spent all there money from farming me and couldn't afford it. Ironically, when they got giants, my survivability went up as I was getting a decent amount of health from the priests I upgraded us to around the same time and using slam in the crowed chokepoint (w/ a Bloodstone Ring), and of course nearer the crystal.

Also, not sure, but I don't think I saw TB all that much towards the end; I wonder if he was back at their base trying to fight off the swarms Oak was sending.

Reply #12 from Demigod Forums Top

Well, idk how people feel about Erebus's ability to warp from the middle of the map into the bases on crucible, BUT if we were to agree that that is not lame...then Oak's minions flying across shouldn't be considered lame imo.

Reply #13 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting drugfreeboy, reply 12
Well, idk how people feel about Erebus's ability to warp from the middle of the map into the bases on crucible, BUT if we were to agree that that is not lame...then Oak's minions flying across shouldn't be considered lame imo.
End of drugfreeboy's quote

Well, the erebus teleport thing is annoying because he can teleport, cap your portal, and teleport back, and you have no real way to fight back. With minions... well, you just fight them off or buy upgrades!

Reply #15 from Demigod Forums Top

I've actually had this done to me before in a 3v3 game.  The opposition had two oaks and we were generally at least matching them in play if not being more dominant in the field.

Then the spirit charging started.  Now, in the back and forth of the match, they did knock down some of the entry portals infront of our citadel on Leviathan (which isn't all that well protected compared to some maps anyways) so that made it a bit easier for the spirits.  Still, it completely turned the tide of the game.  At least one of us had to guard the citadel at all times, and even then the spirits weren't that easy to kill since they fly right up into the citadel.  Yes we killed them off over and over, but they most certainly did a hefty amount of damage to the citadel nonetheless.  We did have at least one or more health regen upgrades bought at the citadel as well - it helps but it definitely didn't stop the wittling away.  Almost as importantly, since at least one of our team had to be on spirit duty, it gave the opposition a big advantage out in the rest of the field as they were now 3v2 or 3v1 most of the time.  It was an effective strategy and I'm fairly certain that it won them the game.

Now, I'm not going to call it a cheat or anything, because it obviously isn't, but I can't say that I particularily think it's an upstanding tactic either.  At worst I'd call it an exploit, since it's clearly allowed by the game's mechanics.  I do have to wonder if this sort of tactic, particularly with Oak's flying spirits was intended by design or just something unforseen by the devs when they coded the overall game mechanics.  If it isn't, I'm not sure what a good proposal for a fix would be off hand.  If you limit minion movement away from the general (or even into unseen fogged areas), you do hamper them in a lot of other ways that make them useful.  This is mainly an Oak thing too, as I play a lot of minion build Erebus and I can't see nightwalkers being nearly as effective at this tactic.

-dolynick

Reply #16 from Demigod Forums Top

This is mainly an Oak thing too, as I play a lot of minion build Erebus and I can't see nightwalkers being nearly as effective at this tactic.
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Yeah, it is inherent in Oak's minions' flight. I have to wonder how much an Oak has to sacrifice in order to pull this off though. Having only played Oak in single-player mode, I have to say his minions seem to get chewed up at a fairly quick rate by towers (even if they replenish just as easily). In the game you mentioned, did you have any tower upgrades to increase damage and add tower AoE? Could the towers not hit the minions or did the opponent focus on the towers near the citadel first? While you say it gimped your side by having to keep a member on minion repelling duty, the other team had two members spending skill points (and possibly gold on minion buffing items) on pushing this strategy which probably also hindered their frontline effectiveness; so it might not be imbalanced at all.

Reply #17 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting SetarcosNous, reply 16

This is mainly an Oak thing too, as I play a lot of minion build Erebus and I can't see nightwalkers being nearly as effective at this tactic.Yeah, it is inherent in Oak's minions' flight. I have to wonder how much an Oak has to sacrifice in order to pull this off though. Having only played Oak in single-player mode, I have to say his minions seem to get chewed up at a fairly quick rate by towers (even if they replenish just as easily). In the game you mentioned, did you have any tower upgrades to increase damage and add tower AoE? Could the towers not hit the minions or did the opponent focus on the towers near the citadel first? While you say it gimped your side by having to keep a member on minion repelling duty, the other team had two members spending skill points (and possibly gold on minion buffing items) on pushing this strategy which probably also hindered their frontline effectiveness; so it might not be imbalanced at all.

End of SetarcosNous's quote

I'm not sure about tower damage upgrades... this game occurred quite some time ago and frankly I just don't remember.  They did beat down some of the towers heading into our base beforehand, as I mentioned in my first post and secondly, Leviathan doesn't have a lot of towers near the citadel itself anyways so I'm not sure how effective tower damage upgrades would have been.

As for spending skills on minions and it hampering their side... I don't quite buy that.  Having played a lot of a full minion build lately I have to say that focusing on minions doesn't make you weaker.  It changes how you might have to play a bit, since you're not so much burst damage anymore but rather sustained pressure, but I wouldn't say you are a weaker opponent because of it.  Yeah, the Oaks in question might have been weaker since they sent their minions away, but they didn't have to be as strong out in the field anyways since at least one of us was forced to go after their spirits (because they definitely were taking the citadel down if we didn't).  Oak doesn't really have much of a problem replacing spirits if they're killed either, he just plants a new raise dead flag anywhere on the field and regains them fairly quickly.

-dolynick

Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say investing in minions gimps generals overall, just that Oak sending them away removes his power from the front lines.