LULA POSTED:

KFC POSTS:

The Jewish rite of Circumcision most certainly was the fore "type" of the Christian rite of Baptism. The ancient Isrealites entered into the Covenant with God as His chosen people and the circumcision sealed the covenant.

Just before Risen Christ ascended into Heaven, St.Matthew 28 records that He told the Apostles to "go...teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whoatsoever I have commended you; and behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world" Please do pay attention to the significance of Christ's words here and recognize the need for Baptism.

The New and Eternal Covenant superceded the Old and upon the command of Jesus, Baptism became the rite of New Covenant in which anyone who is Baptized becomes a member of God's new chosen people.  With Christ as the Eternal High Priest according to the order of Melchisedech, His Church built upon the rock (priesthood) of St.Peter of the New Covenant replaced  the Synagogue and ceremonial Temple rites and rituals of the Old Covenant. Christ told St.Peter to "feed My sheep" and gave him His authority.  

KFC, we can quibble about terminology of Baptism, however, the reality of its sacred action and its source coming from Chrsit to the community of His Chruch is beyhond dispute. Read the Book of Acts. Again, the effects of the Christian rite of Baptism are likewise beyond dispute---the removal of original sin Rom. 5:12-19; participation in our Lord's death and resurection Rom. 6:3-5; and membership in Christ's Church 1Cor. 12:12.  

kfc posts:

Hmmm...It's my understanding that the purification ritual was for women who had just given birth...so no, it is not a forerunner to the Sacrament of Baptism that Christ commanded His Apostles to baptize "all nations..."  

kfc posts:

LEAUKI POSTS:

Leauki,

Please read my last post. 

There is a theological significance of both circumcision and Baptism. Circumcision as an ancient  Jewish religious ritual was indeed a fore-type of the CHristian Baptism as commanded by Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember, just becasue you may not agree or believe it doesn't mean that it is not so.

There is a theological significance of circumcision, but it has nothing to do sin or anything like that. Circumcision is not related to baptism and not a foretype of it.

Note:

No, it is for lots of situations where someone is ritually impure. It has also nothing to do with sin (it is not a sin to do things that make one ritually impure), but it seems related to baptism in the sense that they are both rituals that _clean_ something.

That's a stupid point. It is I, a member of the tribe of Judah, telling you, a non-member, how WE regard this ritual.

Whether I and my people agree is certainly important, since it is OUR ritual, not yours.

What you have there is a Christian view that developed thousands of years (Abraham lived 4000 years ago) after the fact.

I'll repeat KFC's explanation:

circumcision has nothing to do with baptism.  In the OT the Jews had a purification ritual that involved water and cleansing.  If anything that would be a forerunner to baptism.  Not circumcision.  

It's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of scholarly correctness. The circumcision ritual is solely about membership in the Jewish people. It does not and was not meant to change the sinner status of a person and an uncircumcised man has, all other things being equal, the same sinner status as a circumcised man.

Remember that in contrast to membership in the Christian community (a religion), membership in the Jewish community (a people) does not change a person's status with regards to his sins as seen by that community.

For a Christian a non-Christian is someone not yet saved. But for a Jew a non-Jew is someone just as saved as a Jew (except with fewer obligations towards G-d and other people). Hence the two rituals are meant for different purposes. Baptism is about making an unsaved person a saved person (i.e. clean his sins but not change his nationality), circumcision is about making a non-Jew a Jew (i.e. change his nationality but not clean his sins).

Yes, I agree...the key word here is  circumcision "was" the seal of the covenant between God and His People of Isreal. It did not change the inner state of the person's soul.

Baptism, on the other hand, is more perfect, and by the actionof the Holy Spirit does remove original sin and and the stain of actual sin from the person's soul.

once a person is baptized, he becomes a Christian, and the believer must then live like one,and that is where good works find their place. In Baptism because one has received the new life in CHrist, he must give evidence of a lively faith by living a Godly life and that means giving up one's self interest and attending to the needs of the poor and oppressed.

Since no one is perfect, we fall off the path and commit sin. When we do, we muist acknowledge that, repent, and recive the Sacramental grace of Confession.

Once a person is Baptized, he cannot be an individualist for CHristianity by its very nature, is communial life, an ecclesial or Churchly reality.

How is that "more perfect"? It's different.

There is no original sin. It's just something you believe in. To me that doesn't mean anything.

But believe you me, circumcision means something to anyone who undergoes it.

Fact is...It is the Jews who were unfaithul to the Old Covenant...and Almighty God had enough as was shown when the Temple veil was rent from top to bottom at Christ's death on the Cross.  And in fulfillment to Daniel's prophecy, Christ told the Jewis high preist and Sanhedrin at His trial that in their generation, the Son of man would come to judge them and He did..only He judged them from Heaven. Ever since 70AD when the Temple was destroyed, there are no more Old Covenant ceremonies, rituals etc. in effect. 

As was according to God's plan of salvation, the Christian rite of Baptism certainly did develop thousand of years after Abraham. I am Baptized in Christ, since He is Abraham's "seed", I am a spiritual Jew, a descendant of Abraham, and heir to the promise.

Just as you said, the religious significance of circumcision did not remove sin...and so it was "less" perfect...Baptism does remove sin and so is "more perfect".

That's not a fact, that's your belief.

What Jesus' followers CHANGED does not constitute parts of the "Old Covenant".

Plus there is no "Old Covenant", there is just one covenant between G-d and the people of Israel. It's possible, for all I care, that G-d made covenants with other people, but that wouldn't affect our covenant with Him and He wouldn't go back on His word either.

The covenant between G-d and the people of Israel is in no way affected by ANYTHING Jesus did or said. It continues forever. It is perfect.

A method to remove non-existing sin is not "perfect", it is merely quackery.

A pencil that "removes sin" is not "more perfect" than a chair if all you want is to sit down.

You might be a "spiritual" descendant of Abraham, if you believe in his god, but you are not a "spiritual Jew". A Jew is NOT defined by his belief in the Jewish god. A Jewish soul is more than just the soul of a believer of any nationality.

Muslims are spritual descendants of Abraham too, as are Rastafarians. That alone doesn't say much.

You don't understand Judaism. You are not a "spiritual Jew".

This is a picture showing a Jewish soul:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Resources/AccoRothschild.html#5

You are not a Jewish soul.

You are a member of the establishment, not a spiritual sister of the people who always end up on the other side.

Baptism removes original sin?  How so?  Original sin is self interests (importance), and most children are baptised shortly after birth.  They haven't a clue as to what is going on or even the importance of the ritual of baptism.  Many of these children go on to sin all over the place due to the fact that they have self interests (importance).   I am of the mind that the hebrew nation has the right idea when it comes to rituals such as circumcision, it is performed on young men  at the age of 13 or so when they come into their majority. they are very much aware of the reasons that this ritual is being done and it's importance to them.  They are old enough and experienced enough to concentrate on this meaning and reflect on it.  It actually means something to them, unlike the infants that are baptised on a regular basis by christians.

Yishmaelites do it at the age of 13. Israelites do it on the age of eight days.

The reason it's done at 8 days is that this is after the body has activated the immune system but before the body has finished the map of the body. It minimises the risk of an infection and the pain.

The Bar Mitzwah is at the age of 13, because Bar Mitzwah signifies acceptance of the obligations of the religion. The circumcision signifies only membership of the nation, which cannot be helped.

Thank you Leauki for the information, it makes perfect sense for both circumcision and Bar Mitzwah.

If what you say Lulapilgrim about baptism is correct then tell me why the man Jesus, whom you unequivicably state was God and was born without original sin, was baptised by John. What point could there have been in it?  There was no sin to wash away according to your belief.  Do you think that Jesus allowed this to be done simply for the sake of doing it, or to prove that he was a man and therefore also had to submit to the "new covenant"? 

You long for death. That's pessimistic, not optimistic.

Fairytale. "And they all lived happily ever after."

Then why don't you kill yourself?

I do not long for death, ending one's participation in this world is not a longing for death, but for life.  I do not believe in a heaven after death, quite the contrary I am more of the mind in the jewish vein when it comes to that.  One will not find the next world after death.  Finding the next world is a concious act one that is performed during one's lifetime.  Once one has died the chance for that is over.  How can one overcome the desire and attraction of the world when one is no longer in it?

I can not prove to you that it is or is not a fairytale.  That's up to each individual to prove or disprove for themselves.  I have proven it to myself, but that means nothing to you nor should it mean anything to you.  Somethings have to be seen and experienced to be believed and known.

Why should I kill myself?  Where would that get me?  It won't get me to the next world, and while I have a slim to no chance of making it during my lifetime, the chances fall to absolute zero when I die.

What supernatural things have you seen?

Supernatural?  Everything there is is of God, so nothing is 'supernatural".  Even so if I told you what I've seen what good would that do you?  Would you believe me?  Not likely, so why should I bother?  It would be a waste for us both.  It's up to you to try see what you consider "supernatural", it's the only way that you will ever believe it.

All of this is pretty much a waste for everyone.

Yes, I know that it's a lousy pat answer, sorry.  However you can do this thing, there's nothing stopping you but you.

Then why do you bother?  There must be something that you are looking for even if it's just to belittle everyone else here.  I think that it's more than that, but I could be wrong.

Since KFC's new article seems to be pretty much forgotten, here's one of her posts and my reply.

Turn back Evolution and progress? Be just as stuck in the dark ages as they are? I've never heard such bullshit. They should catch up with us.

Terrorists think the same way.

It's both fact and my belief.

But you're focusing on their immaturity in the faith and the beginning of their ministries.  Look at how they ended their lives and their ministries.  Remember it's not how you start a race that's important; it's all in the finish.  Have you ever heard of an 85 meter race? 

Yes, absolutely.  That's why he asked questions.  When God said to Adam "where are you?"  it wasn't because He didn't know where Adam was, it was because He wanted Adam to know where he was. 

Now this is where we have to split as we're going to have to agree to disagree.  I've already worn out two bibles in the last 10 years as a result of my very intensive studies and I don't see any of what you see here.  Paul didn't start out humble, agree but he sure ended up that way in order to be used of God.  I believe God used Paul as he did Moses.  Moses also was a very learned man in a high position.  In Paul's case he was to go before Kings and those in high positions which he did.  His learning brought him into King's courts and Governor's mansions.  He used him in a diff way than he did with the others.  Paul was a born leader; a shaker and mover. He had lots of energy.   But what God had to do first was to bring him low enough so that he had to look up which is exactly what Paul did.  His previous persecution of the people of God was always a regret in the back of his mind and the reason he called himself the "least of the Apostles."

I think Paul definitely had the personality to have been as you say but God made sure that Paul didn't get too full of himself by bringing Paul thru the persecutions he went through and sending him the thorn in the flesh to keep him humble.  Think about it, he spent much time in jail, and for a man of his reputation this had to be humbling not to mention the many times he was beaten like a common criminal. 

no this cleaning purification that I'm speaking of has nothing to do with only women.  Although woman also had to go thru it like you mentioned...after birth.   Remember when Jesus was criticized by the Pharisees because his disciples didn't wash before they ate?  The Jews had all sorts of purification rituals. Like everything else their traditions superceded the word of God.  They could be defiled by touching a corpse or a leper.  That was biblical but they added so many more rules putting a burden on the people like they were trying to force on Christ and his disciples. 

The Jews understood from scripture that the water meant cleansing Ezek 36:24-27.  In the OT water is used symbolically especially in conjunction with the spirit as cleansing Numbers 19:17-19, Jer 2:13, Ps 119:9 for instance.  In John Chap 3 Jesus was making reference to Nicodemus about spiritual cleansing or purification of the soul by the HS thru the Word of God. 

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit whom he poured out on us generously thru Jesus Christ our Savior."  Titus 3:5-6

That's why I say this makes more sense than circumcision.  Besides, circumcision was only given to the Jews and only for Jewish males.  It has nothing to do with the NT baptism which was for both male and female. 

Water is used as a physical example of the Holy Spirit.  So if the purification rituals were for both man and women in the OT and circumcision were only for males doesn't it make more sense that the water purification of the OT is a better example for the NT baptism than what you're saying circumcision is? 

It is only your belief.