Maybe it really isn't all that important, even though I ill forever wonder why advent has to upgrade desert planets before they upgrade their homeworld. I didn't ask for that.
I wanted the Vasari homeworld to have a phase stabilizer node by default (as a green tag, not a structure).

Care to post an opinion on my suggestion?

i think it sounds like a good idea. it would give the marauder slightly more usefulness, and it doesnt seem to give any advantage early game, so its pretty balanced in and of itself. it only saves some money for the vasari late game

I came to realize that the biggest screwup about the capital ships is that the devs

• wanted some caps to be specialized
• didn't want all caps to have straight combat purpose, and at the same time
• made all caps available at start

This makes for a very unpleasant situation - you are given the option but it's useless until some distant future.

Compare this to other RTS games. In most strategy games you get one/two units to start with. Both have their use and are good options, just different. As the game progresses, more specialized units are unlocked when you need them. The same in sins among frigates/cruisers.
Cap ships are, however, all available at the start, but are not all a viable choice at the start, while all requiring a healthy amount of experience to be of some use.

I believe cap ships should EITHER:

• be like frigates - unlockable with research when they are needed and as strong (leveled?) from the start as the research tier would suggest
• be all viable from the start - which leads to massive buffs throughout the boards.

One of the two.

Nay. if any, it has to be the second one.

The possibility to choose right from the beginning adds much variety to this game (or at least it should do so, but the choice is not a real choice now) and influences the way you will go in the game (e.g. sova = rush).

There are of course typical "starting caps" (mothership, egg, marza ...) because they are the most useful at the beginning. Thats okay but in general you should have the choice at least for the next caps without the research tree forcing you to take caps in a specific order.

So balancing these "loser caps" (marauder, sova ...) is the only option in my eyes.

And: Comparing to other RTS games... Take Warcraft 3 for instance: You can choose your hero from all available heroes right at the beginning, all other units need special "research" or buildings. Just like Sins...

I agree with this assessment and I would prefer option 1, if it is executed well. but I do not see any significant chance of this ever coming true, so option 2 is probably more sensible now and more or less what is done or at least tried here.

to elaborate on the first one though: I thought it was always a bit strange to have to supposedly top-of-the-line warship kol available right off the start, even before lrms let alone heavy cruisers. of course, whatever you do, some choice needs to remain, so you'd need at least 2 - 3 capital ships to start off to make for some kind of choice, otherwise it's kind of stale and does take away choices. coloniser cap would be an obvious example for one of them. so what should the alternative be, a warship or one of the support capships. well, I'd go more for the warship, since support caps usually get more useful in slightly larger fleets when their buffs affect more ships. likewise, the would in this situation just be a good alternative to the vast bonuses of coloniser caps. so I'd put the siege caps in at the start also, most of which have relatively good fighting capabilities and abilities. maybe the carrier, but I'd tend to make those available at a low tech level. primary battleships and support capships should be a bit higher up then.

of course, this could also mean a difference in cost and capabilities. ie. if the kol comes late and requires research, it should be more powerful than the others, but in turn require more resources.

and really, just because wc III made it that way doesn't mean it should be the same in sins. it is a great game and sins took a few of their concepts, but they are different games and I don't want fancy heroes in space, I want hulking warships that I need to develop over time.

alternatively, there could be different iterations for capships, like Mk I, Mk II etc, that could be researched. but that's too far off and complicated.

WC3 heroes were balanced. One was a melee badass, second was a ranged killah, third was a buff caster (more or less). They were different but all worked fine.

In sins we got two caps that make sense at the start, one that hardly does and two that just do not make any sense to start with. Vasari have EGG, Vulk and crap.
I say that these ships should either ALL be usable from the start (hence mad buffing required) or should be available later in a more specialized form. For example, marauder could be available after researching phase gates and would be massively oriented on moving the fleet around fast fast FAST. Nobody would care that he doesn't pack any punch or combat viability - it would come when necessary and would do what it's supposed to.

The problem with the first is that it'd ruin diversity even more. For example, let's say the Sova Carrier is available after researching Percheron Prototype, then Sova Carrier research. That's already costing quite a sum. Adding with the expensive capital ship fleet upgrades and its high price, and the Sova Carrier will become even more useless. Also, the earlier-available capitals will more quickly dominate the later ships, even with buffs.

With the Advent, the Progen will usually be first choice, but Advent fleets make excellent use of all their caps and a player will likely build more than just the starting. Their only weaker ship is the Revelation, and even that's still great.

TEC can use virtually all their ships as starters. The Akkan, Marza, Kol, and Dunov are all equally viable as a starter, because they bring good abilities to a fleet. The Sova does need heavy reworking before it's viable again, however.

It's really only the Vasari with the big capital ship problems. I think it'd be far easier and better to just buff the weaker ships (Marauder, Kortul, Skirantra, and Sova) instead of adding more research.

I was only trying to point out that not all other RTS use "researchable units only" and that this concept of available hero units (=cap ships) is neither new nor senseless.

agreed! Besides the whole cost factor (additional research costs for cap ship availability): Who decides when which ship is usable? I think that should be my (the player's) choice. I do not need a planet bomber the first 30 minutes in the game but if I want to start with a planet bomber, let me do it. And think about how boring short agressive games would become if each player uses the same cap ship (because others are not yet researched).

Buffing or even re-designing the weaker cap ships so that each cap ship has its own use right from the start would be adequate and probably even add more strategic depth to the game. Making cap ships available step by step would flatten the game even more.

Sins of a Solar Empire capital ships very obviously take their inspiration from Warcraft III heroes.  Drawing broad comparisons here is quite valid.

Of course, WC3 has its own problem heroes.  Need I mention the death knight?  The crutch of the undead faction?  In fact, in many ways he reminds me of the Progen due to his massive synergies with his own faction and the fact that the other heroes available to undead are actually quite good, just overshadowed by a superpower.  On the other hand, his synergies are so pervasive that if you nerfed him his entire faction would be unplayable.

I think Sins can go far, perhaps even breaking Vasari of their addiction to the egg, but I don't think the Progen will ever be fixed.  I strongly suspect till the dying days of Sins that the Progenitor will remain Advent's choice for first capital ship 99% of the time.  At least it's living up to its moniker.

Just as a note, I didn't mention the two options cause I want the caps to be researched.

I wrote what I did to explain why ALL caps must be viable from the start. So you all agree that there is no place for caps that "might help someday.. or not". When you build your first cap, you want to build your fleet and expansion around its abilities, not gamble on whether you will ever be able to use any of its abilities.

This just explains why the buffs up there, radical as some may be, are really needed.

Ok, I've finally gotten around to reading this all.  Great job Kitkun!  The most writing I've ever seen from you!  He He.

Regarding the current debate, I think the simple solution is:  MAKE CAP SHIPS CHEAPER!  Some how.  Some way.  That alone, would make more of them MORE VIABLE.  Right now, it is simply too expensive to rebuild another Cap Ship Factory, pay for research for more Caps, and then pay for the expensive ships themselves - to get something that isn't really competetive in its current state. 

And... while we are at it, make them MORE DURABLE as well!  So that big investment doesn't get instantly focused fired to oblivion.  As suggested here.

Back to the original topic, I've compared the current suggested Buffs to my ratings of each ability, and I have a few comments there as well.

Kitkun, I generally agree with almost everything.  But have a couple suggestions: 
The 'Egg' (Evacuator) Gravity Warhead also needs to start with auto attack OFF, because it will instantly cast, and waste antimatter (as well as constantly cast when not usefull!).
I think the Revelation Provoke Hysteria needs a shorter cooldown!  7.25 minutes for the 3 shots to kill any planet is too long IMO.
Like both Cykur & RA (replies #65 & #55), I agree that the Vasari really need another interupt ability (besides POH) somewhere!  Maybe in Scramble Bomberrs, or maybe Jam weapons? Which I also agree sucks as a strikecraft disabler.  Also, I have to admit that I find the Kortul's abilities extremely confusing.
Finally, I don't understand what you did to Revelation Guidance?  What does this mean? Add 3/6/9 AM recharge?

I put probalby 90% of Kitkun's mod into mine. Truely a great mod.

I agree about the whole "cap balance isn't ideal". Where we differ is the direction we go.

They all have to have the same cost with the way the current system is, and I don't like the idea of making them cheaper. Currently they run the cost of about 5 Kodiaks.

See, I think the roles of the caps need to be further accentuated.

Battleships: Increase the toughness. I actually go as far as saying it should be twice as tough as they currently are, but to do that, the cap would HAVE to be something you tech

Colonizers: I'm actually happy with them, provided Kitkun's balances are applied. Strong colonization is the point of this cap.

Support: I'd go so far as to suggest that these should be made even MORE powerful in terms of their abilities, but that it should a cap that needs to be researched.

Carriers: No one picks the carrier cap to start. Ok, so the Sova is bugged which is why no one picks it. Overall they just don't bring enough oomph. Perhaps make the carrier cap a low level tech to research (tier 2 or even tier 1) but give it slight buffs across the board. The Skiranta's healing ability could be given a larger AOE and Scramble Bombers deserves to die. I believe the Halcyon really should have the firing rate aura switched as I mentioned before. Then give the carrier WAY more strikecraft per squadron as Kitkun proposes, and you have a viable starting cap. Perhaps even go 3/6/9 extra strikecraft. That might be a bit much, but hey, who knows. If embargo get's fixed and armored fighters is buffed, the Sova is a decent starting cap.

Seige: These are ok, except for the Revalation. I really believe guidance deserves to be killed almost as much as scramble bombers. ALMOST. It should be replaced with a seiging aura that gives anything else in the area that can seige a seiging bonus. It needs something else to fit the "seiging cap" character.

Here's the current state of the game. You either pick a cap that can seige early or can colonize early. That's it. In the multiplayer environment where you need to be aggressive to have a prayer of surviving, and even in single player where you are choosing the ideal way to play, the fact is:

1. Colonizing

2. Seiging

are the two most powerful and map changing elements of the game. This means the  battleship "rock in the fleet" character, support cap "UBER support cruiser" character, and carrier cap "ultimate carrier cruiser" mantra need to be emphasized.

I'm not trying to make any overwhelming all encompassing statement here, but the current method of cap selection leaves little variety in starting strats.

There's little incentive to pick a battleship first. You expand too slowly and the cap can't seige all that effectively. Sure, the cap'll never die, but outside of that, it doesn't bring much to the table in terms of map changing impact.

There's little incentive to pick a carrier cap first. The Sova is bugged. The Halcyon really is more of a support cap than a carrier. If you think about it, amplify energy aura on the halycon and the carrier damage bonus on the rapture REALLY should be swapped. And the Skirantra? It's viable ONLY if you're spamming carriers, and you aren't going to get those out in decent numbers early.

There's little incentive to pick a support cap first. This actually is probably the way it should be. If the whole point is to support, shouldn't this essentially be one huge support cruiser? AKA you have to research it?

So many ways one could go. Just throwing my hat out there.

No one uses the Sova because it simply sucks. Even with Embargo unbugged, the poor Sova still has no viable reason to be a starting capital (or built at all). Missile Batteries is expensive, Heavy SC and Rapid Manufacturing are terrible, and it brings the lowest DPS and stats of TEC's capital ships. Unless someone is throwing a Sova straight at the enemy homeworld for a use of Embargo, it's a pointless capital ship.

You want to required research to build Caps!?! Ugh, way to reduce their use even more.

since most of us don't like researchable caps, perhaps we could have researchable upgrades. like, 50% increase in health for the battleship, 4 extra squadrons for the carrier, etc. thus you can have the basic caps, which would remain the same, and upgraded, which would have some of the suggestions made by raging amish and deceiver

It was more of a fantasy than anything else. Courtesy of Cykur, I like the idea of making battleships tier 6/7/8, somewhere in there. Once they're out and about though, they're incredibably powerful, like say (2-4)X as powerful as they are now. That's a bastion in the fleet my friend.

Something should be done though to make someone want to pick a cap besides the Progen/Egg/Marza/Akkan as their first cap. The more diversity you get from the start, the more fun the game is overall.

There are different ways you could go. I was saying IF the current status quo of Only Seige Caps/Colonizing caps are picked early, then make Battleships/Carriers/Support caps you had to research so when they do come out, they bring a dynamic impact so they are truely felt and respected.

This may be nostalgia talking, but Embargo rushing used to not only be powerful, but the abused strat in v1.03 i think on regular sins. It was truely awesome, but alas, it got nerfed and now only works if it can get to the enemy  homeworld in under 10 minutes or so.

I understand where your coming from Raging, but what your suggesting to make Battleships end game units. You end up with a rush to tech them and spam them. Take Supreme Commander, its a rush to Expermental Units. NOT Fun.

I for one, it may be why I lose alot. Use the Kol as a start Cap almost 98% of the time. The other time Dunvo.

If you want to add research into the mix what eoncommander suggest is the way to go.

I tend to favour RA's view here and I quite believe that it can be made to be balanced.

alternatively, anyone else thought of playing with the values that increase with levels? sure, it's not perfect, but you could change those to have capships become more powerful, but only with higher levels. so far as I can determine, the increases are linear, but that's not such a big issue. as a matter of fact, I modded those things myself for private use, but I wouldn't consider those to be anything close to balanced.

but if you start in that direction, balance is going to be a lot more difficult and complicated than the current 'all instantly available at similar price' scheme.

Totally in agreement!

Raging Amish, and what is the fire power of those 5 Kodiaks compared to 1 Cap ship?  About 3 times more?

And is the cost really comparable?  When I get some time, I'll caclulate a comparison.  As it is, almost nobody builds multiple Cap Ships in online Multi-Player games because it doesn't make sense.

I think a player could start with 2 capital ship crews available.

Fist cap should be free, as it is.
Second should require construction costs only.
Third should require additional research.

That way building a second cap is not excessively expensive, and would encourage doing it if someone is not doing econ.
Mind that you still need the first fleet supply upgrade done to build the second cap, unless you scuttle all your frigates (no scouts/colony frigs to capture extractors - generally a poor idea, but at least a tactical option). So it's not too big of a discount.

I also think all races should have means of constructing higher level caps in later game. There is usually zero point in building a lvl 1 cap and bring it to a dense 80-HC battle. Paying some 8k credits to build a cap and have it trained to level 4 is just a tad too much.
Advent already can do it - their ships automatically level up thanks to a research.
Vasari/TEC should also have such an option. For example, a three-level tier6/7 research saying "Reduces the cost of purchasing levels on capital ships by 20/40/60%".

Off the top of my head, Kodaks cost 500 cred, 100 metal, 70 crysal. 5 of those is 2500 creds, 500 metal, 350 crystal.

Caps are 3000 creds, 400 metal, 250 crystal, close enough. No need to get exact. You get the point.

5 kodies do 90 damage. Depending on the starting cap it'll do anywhere from 24-51? damage ( I think that's what the marza does to start, either way, close enough ).

At level 10 with weapon upgrades (cause you're gonna have bought at least one tier of weapon upgrades if you have a cap that made it to level 10), I've had a Progen doing over 100 dps.

It's hard to balance caps, largely because they bring the DOTA leveling up element with them.

I will say this. My main reason for saying no to reducing the cost of caps is because

1. They bring several abilities with them, and depending on the cap, these abilities can be ungodly powerful (AKA The Halcyon Bitch Slap of Doom to fighters, for instance)

2. All caps must remain the same cost (that is if the pick 1 of 5 for free at the beginning is to stay). Think about it. Do you want to make Marzas, Progens, and Eggs cheaper not only to replace, but to spam? Kol Spams (yes, I said Kol spams), may not be the most practical spam in the world, but they do WORK. They're so heavily armored, and repulse won't always work. The kol's beams outrange repulse. I've had it done to me and I've done it to people. It's not practical in small maps, but on medium maps (say 3v3 on a large single star), it does work. With a cost reduction, I'd be concerned that Kol Spamming would become OP, or any cap spamming for that matter.

BTW, I like the ideas N3Rull. The only add-on I'd make, and I apologize if I'm repeating something that someone already said, would be to add a research that cuts the cost of caps significantly. Make it a very high tech. Like, tier 5-6. Like just 1 research that'll cut the cost of caps by 25%. Something around there.

Caps should play more of a part of the game than they currently do, cause in multiplayer after the first cap, you tend not to buy another unless you want something that can disable (I tend to get a radiance purely to kill antimatter reserves on my enemy's high level cap).

It'd fit the balance much better if in general it would be in your best interest to have the same amount teched in caps as you do in fleet. Like, if you buy tier 3 fleet, you should be at tier 2-4 in cap ship slots. Follow?

Currently, we don't really have that.

Actually, on the flipside, the capital ship will level up remarkably quickly in such fleet battles.  Just the other day I lost my egg when defending my homeworld (started wedged between two enemies).  I needed nanos to kill starbases, so I replaced it.  My ally showed up shortly afterwards and we had a massive 2v2 fleet battled.  At the end of it my new egg was higher leveled than the original one it replaced.  If capital ships were a little tougher so they didn't die so often once bomber and LRF swarms are available I don't think we'd have a problem here. 

That said, I do agree it might be useful if we had an upgrade to reduce the cost of buying new capital ship levels (perhaps just add this to the current tech that allows access to buying the 4th level). 

There's also the matter of the crew upgrade.  If you already have the crew upgrade, replacing a capital ship makes sense.  If you don't, often times getting a new one does not make sense.  As well, if you demolished your capital shipyard earlier, that's another cost you have to pay. 

You could reduce the cost of crew upgrades and leave the cost of the capital ships themselves alone.  This would make the difference in cost between expanding your capital ship armada and replacing destroyed ones more narrow.  I think we can agree it generally makes sense to replace, but expanding is prohibitive.  The other option is to leave the cost of crew upgrades but reduce the cost of the capital ships.  This would keep expanding expensive, but replacing dead ones would be reasonable.

I know what you mean about the level-up quality.  I myself like to get two or three capital ships early and focus on levelling them up.  It's a heavy investment, but if you get them all to high levels it pays off excellently.  The problem is, I always have the nagging feeling that I would have been better off crushing the enemy with frigates.  I'm sure there's a fine line here, but right now we're too far in one direction.

If I had my way... well that's not possible within the engine.

I've already been thinking of adding in researched buffs to caps for my personal-use mod. There's a few unused icons within the game files that would be nice for that.

Away from home for the weekend. Let's see if there can be any concensus on Cap Ships beyond their abilities. Who knows? I might make a second mod. This would be seperate as it would have more radical changes.

Speaking of which, what if the Training upgrade had an extra level and gave maybe a 5% XP bonus?

I gotta agree with an interrupt, but I don't have any rough ideas as to where or how to implement it. I'm loathe to take away an anti-strikecraft ability or put them on the Skirantra's strikecraft. Too high a range and it becomes OP extremely fast. All those Hoshikos wouldn't get anything done being contiously interrupted. Too low and it would be a huge pain getting them to the target. Then there's the bit where it would get multiple squadrons to do this with. Anywho, if someone has a good idea, I'd love to hear it.

As for Guidance, that's Mana, err, Antimatter recharge. You run out of antimatter really fast already. You just run out faster with Guidance.