Master of Magic video demo » Forum Post by Frogboy

Quoting Nathan E,

Too bad Elemental won't have map "Planes", more than one level to a map.

I second this sentiment. Why not?

I loved the dimension feel that AoW had with the different plane and Underground made making campaigns much more interesting. But I guess in order for Elemental to not be a squeal to something else it must be its "own". I think it is heading in the right direction though!

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 74

We're abandoning the idea because I don't like them.

Fair enough. Your original post made it sound more like a "We don't need to so we won't" type attitude instead of the "We don't like the mechanic."

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 74

A lot of good ideas come from the limitations imposed on us though. And just because those limiations are removed doesn't mean we should abandon the idea as being "out dated".

We're abandoning the idea because I don't like them.

..but....but...Planes/multi level maps are awesome! Ah well....

Quoting TCores,

reply 75

No dungeon interiors to explore then?

What is this have to do with planes? Either way, I hope that the dungeons will be explorable.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Or perhaps not planes but I'd like underwater cities and regions.

It could be like Dominions: not a parallel plane but regions only those with amphibious capabilities could enter or leave (and aquatic units should be restricted to). That would add a little plus strategically (I like the spell which freezes the sea and prevents any surface crossing).

But, otherwise, YES, I'd like underground regions and cities too.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 74

A lot of good ideas come from the limitations imposed on us though. And just because those limiations are removed doesn't mean we should abandon the idea as being "out dated".

We're abandoning the idea because I don't like them.

Damn, I liked taking the enemy from behind with an unexpected thrust... but that's enough about my average weekend.

I liked the strategic options that underground realms such as in HoMM and AoW produced. Had they not done so, the maps would all have had to have been larger and this in my experience tends to lead to 'hinterlands' syndrome- cities far from the frontlines become completely ignored and never really threatened, making them simple cash cows. Troops often take so long to get to the borders they aren't worth producing. Games become stagnant quite quickly.

Planes such as in MoM I wasn't really that enthused about; myrror (ha ha) wasn't that differant from the normal plane but I appreciate the concept of planes was an expediant measure. I hear they worked well in AoW:SM though.

'Course all this I suppose is dependent on the AI. If the enemy can launch a naval assault even though it shares your landmass simply to take you by suprise near an undefended coast then that would negate the need for other realms as strategic 'spice'.

I've yet to see many AIs that can do that, though.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting leeboy26,

reply 80

I hear they worked well in AoW:SM though.

Absolutely.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting TCores,

reply 75

No dungeon interiors to explore then?

Not in 1.0. Bug a dungeon wouldn't be a plane. But we do plan to add dungeons in the future.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Had they not done so, the maps would all have had to have been larger and this in my experience tends to lead to 'hinterlands' syndrome- cities far from the frontlines become completely ignored and never really threatened, making them simple cash cows.

The solution for that would be to have magical spells to create rifts or have moon gates or something.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 83

Had they not done so, the maps would all have had to have been larger and this in my experience tends to lead to 'hinterlands' syndrome- cities far from the frontlines become completely ignored and never really threatened, making them simple cash cows.

The solution for that would be to have magical spells to create rifts or have moon gates or something.

Mass Teleport?

Successfully updated karma reason!

I don't like mass teleporting, and I think it's good when the frontline cities are more threatened than the other ones. It encourages city specialization - you can concentrate on defensive structures in some cities, while the less threatened ones can be the "cash cows". If you can expect attack anywhere, the only viable defensive strategy it to have a fast (or teleporting) army that can react to enemy attacks. It makes static defenses pretty useless, unless you have them in all cities.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I agree Teleporting and Forging custom items exploitable IMO. Though I am not against the whole concept I think it needs to be very limited and giving penalties and steep prices is not enough. It has to be limited to one teleporter gate/spell per player or pre set gates made at the time of the map creation as permanent fixtures that one has to gain and maintain control of in order to use it.

off topic (sorry) but just thought about it.

I caution summon spells as they also seem to be exploitable if not well thought out with regard to how the game rules will handle them. Example using them to reach inaccessible areas and then use range attack or magic. Using them to clear the fog of war instead of using scouts, using them as "bait" to get the AI to do predictable moves like spend a certain spell or move towards an ambush etc. Do not take me wrong I love summons and are great to spice up the game but should be well thought out. Like for every summon that dies the sovereign takes damage and have restrictions as to where they can be summoned an how many turns they last (like in disciples 2 they despawn after the turn is over(like this) but one could still use them to reach areas that would take many turns by regular units all in the same turn (I saw this as an exploit))

+1

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting TarponCrest,

reply 86

I agree Teleporting and Forging custom items exploitable IMO. Though I am not against the whole concept I think it needs to be very limited and giving penalties and steep prices is not enough. It has to be limited to one teleporter gate/spell per player or pre set gates made at the time of the map creation as permanent fixtures that one has to gain and maintain control of in order to use it.

off topic (sorry) but just thought about it.

I caution summon spells as they also seem to be exploitable if not well thought out with regard to how the game rules will handle them. Example using them to reach inaccessible areas and then use range attack or magic. Using them to clear the fog of war instead of using scouts, using them as "bait" to get the AI to do predictable moves like spend a certain spell or move towards an ambush etc. Do not take me wrong I love summons and are great to spice up the game but should be well thought out. Like for every summon that dies the sovereign takes damage and have restrictions as to where they can be summoned an how many turns they last (like in disciples 2 they despawn after the turn is over(like this) but one could still use them to reach areas that would take many turns by regular units all in the same turn (I saw this as an exploit))

I'm too tired to make a significant post but suffice to say I agree with your sentiments. Though It's called 'War of Magic' I'd like some limits so you can't rely on it too much. Magic is too... easy.

Successfully updated karma reason!

By the way, there is a new promising fan-site for Master of Magic with lots of goodies.

DragonSword.com

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Fimbul,

reply 48

Quoting Frogboy,
reply 34
Re planes. Planes were in those early games because of the memory limit. We don't have that memory limit. 640k is long gone.

Bigger maps.

Are bigger maps then better? I love AoW:SM, it wouldn't be as good if the maps will be 3 times as big as now but without Underground and Shadowrealm.

You need so much time to cross and conquer a huge map. In a smaller map with 3 layers is it more compact and has alot more stratetic depth.

At my actuall AoW:SM game, do I have an access to the underground in my back garden and the Gobos are spaming Bombers out of it. Thats real pain in my ass, but also really fun to try to shot them down befor they reach my skeleton archer. (This game now runs with dwiggs 5.oo, so many great mods are availabel )

With AOW:SM which IMNO is the best Fanatsy Turnbased to date. I always played on the largest maps with both underground level and Shadowrealm added. I do still play this game of coarse I have heavaly modified it. I think I have over 1000 units of all kinds in the game now. I do love the tatctal combat only I wish the maps were bigger and that you could choose the placement better but other than that this was the main draw to the game for me.

I really hope ther Elemental will take the place of AOW:SM as being my main TBS fanatasy game. Civ Fall from heaven is ok but it has no tactical combat.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting TCores,

reply 75

No dungeon interiors to explore then?

I think... If I understand it correctly there are plans to have dungeon experiences, I think it is just the milti plane (levels) that are not going to be implemented in Elemental. (but something tells me that modders may be able to add this feature later on using the dungeons as a foundation).

Edit: Ups sorry TCores I think I "gooffed" I thought your quoted post was the last one on the thread and it appears there was a whole other page . I guess it is time for me to log off and get some rest...

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting drakkheim,

reply 69

Oh and incidentally Master of Magic is now for sale from the excellent fellows at GOG.com for a princely sum of a cup of starbucks. $6

I think I'll stick with my Age of Wonders and Age of Wonders:SM. I find those games more entertaining than MOM. But Don't get me wrong MOM is a good game after all they are similar.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Bellack,

reply 91

Quoting drakkheim,
reply 69
Oh and incidentally Master of Magic is now for sale from the excellent fellows at GOG.com for a princely sum of a cup of starbucks. $6

I think I'll stick with my Age of Wonders and Age of Wonders:SM. I find those games more entertaining than MOM. But Don't get me wrong MOM is a good game after all they are similar.

Yep same here. Imo AoW2 - SM & Doms 3. are the best in the fantasy TBS genre right now.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 74

A lot of good ideas come from the limitations imposed on us though. And just because those limiations are removed doesn't mean we should abandon the idea as being "out dated".

We're abandoning the idea because I don't like them.

Are you saying your abandoning the planes idea because you don't like them are are you refering to something else?

Personally The more planes or other maps so as to build a multi-level map the better. AOW:SM was limited by a main map and two levels. Would be nice to add many levels. These can be used in all sorts of things like dungeons and such.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Bellack - we won't have planes in EWoM. [Many of us would like to see planes in the game, but it won't happen, so we must try to implement planes via modding.]

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Tormy-,

reply 84

Quoting Frogboy, reply 83
Had they not done so, the maps would all have had to have been larger and this in my experience tends to lead to 'hinterlands' syndrome- cities far from the frontlines become completely ignored and never really threatened, making them simple cash cows.

The solution for that would be to have magical spells to create rifts or have moon gates or something.

Mass Teleport?

Well E:WoM does have a Mass Teleport Spell, and even though it seems to be restricted to moving from and to "owned" map locations it could still pose "abusive" uses.

It does allow for the movement of Troops from the rear areas rather nicely though.

Perhaps the # of units stacked with the "Teleporter" unit should be capped?

Last night, I had 4 children, plus my SoV, all with the ability to Teleport. It provided instantaneous response to any of my Cities that was attacked, 2 peasants could hold any Town for one turn, thus I was always able to be where the fighting was, the non-AI is rather persistent, thus ensuring the Levels came fast and furious for the whole crew.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting John_Hughes,

reply 95

Quoting Tormy-, reply 84
Quoting Frogboy, reply 83
Had they not done so, the maps would all have had to have been larger and this in my experience tends to lead to 'hinterlands' syndrome- cities far from the frontlines become completely ignored and never really threatened, making them simple cash cows.

The solution for that would be to have magical spells to create rifts or have moon gates or something.

Mass Teleport?

Well E:WoM does have a Mass Teleport Spell, and even though it seems to be restricted to moving from and to "owned" map locations it could still pose "abusive" uses.

It does allow for the movement of Troops from the rear areas rather nicely though.

Perhaps the # of units stacked with the "Teleporter" unit should be capped?

Last night, I had 4 children, plus my SoV, all with the ability to Teleport. It provided instantaneous response to any of my Cities that was attacked, 2 peasants could hold any Town for one turn, thus I was always able to be where the fighting was, the non-AI is rather persistent, thus ensuring the Levels came fast and furious for the whole crew.

Oh no... Please Frogboy if you choose to have teleportation do not allow for exploiting or abusing such... Every game I have ever played teleporting has always been an issue specially in multiplayer (it often has to be turned off if such switch is even available) and such action takes away the use of some of the games features in the "name" of keep the game balanced.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I think teleporting should be allowed only for small armies, or "special forces". As I wrote earlier in this thread, I don't like the idea of mass teleporting of large armies, it will make defending your territory with one big teleporting army the only viable option. Using static defense and increasing army mobility by building roads and fast units will become unimportant. If such possibility exists in the final game, I'll make a mod that disables it (unless it can be disabled in options, as I always do with the Teleportation Gates in AoW:SM).

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting _PawelS_,

reply 97

I think teleporting should be allowed only for small armies, or "special forces". As I wrote earlier in this thread, I don't like the idea of mass teleporting of large armies, it will make defending your territory with one big teleporting army the only viable option. Using static defense and increasing army mobility by building roads and fast units will become unimportant. If such possibility exists in the final game, I'll make a mod that disables it (unless it can be disabled in options, as I always do with the Teleportation Gates in AoW:SM).

Agreed.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I been thinking of an alternative to mass teleportation and was wondering about some sort of transport units that allows one to load an "X" amount of units and can travel long distances in one turn and should they get ambushed they will be at a disadvantage because they are in the transport and caught "flatfooted". AOW has something like that but it was not well thought out thus was not practical nor properly implemented (had to many ways to exploit it and teleporting was always a better way to go).

Successfully updated karma reason!

"And please do include the klackons once again"   Ack !!

"I still play it for at least 20 hours every 2-3 months."    Me too !

'MoM is great, but got boring quickly when I figured out how to make a hero that was invincible. I slaughtered whole armies and captured multiple cities all with one lonely hero.."    No ! ! ! Err.... Me too, but not the way you mean.

For me, super heroes are what make this genre great. Much more important than magic, because magic is just another tech like anti-matter power plants or lasers or deathstars. Without heroes to cultivate AND IDENTIFY WITH I might as well play Galciv 2 (which didn't hold my attention 1/10 as long as MOM. Heroes are what keep me coming back to MOM after 15 years. And heroes (Kensai) are the reason why like keep coming back to Shogun Total War instead of later games in that series. Heroes are why I'm hanging around in these forums and pre-ordering for the 1st time in my life.

As for some people's concern that forging custom items is exploitable -- I d**n well hope so. They're a big part of making super heroes super, and that's how I will play if the rules let me. And don't worry about distorting multi-player -- I won't be there -- me against the computer only -- for another 15 years, I hope.

Successfully updated karma reason!