Put me in tier list 2 and i'm happy.

Hmm... good with 2 characters and you assume he'd do well with any other character... heh.  That's right there in my definition for tier 1... if you assume they are good with any character, they are in.     That said, I certainly don't deny that Hedgie is a great player.  And to go a step further, the definition for tier 1 is:

Hedgie does shine as an individual, not with a wide variety of characters (but the wording does say GENERALLY), but he doesn't depend on a specific team or teammate to do well.  He can play exceptionally in teams of all sizes.  He' doesn't cheat or desync games.  He makes games better if he's on your team or against you and he's an active player.  I agree.  Hedgie goes to tier 1.  Adding now.

Synn - as mean as it sounds, I haven't been in any game with you where you struck me as tier 2. The next time we play together, I'll pay close attention and watch the replay.  I'll gladly recant that statement if I'm in the wrong.

No, I don't think all of GM should be tier 1.  You put a bunch of decent folks on a team and perhaps a superstar or 2 and everyone thinks they are the best.  The best are the folks that shine in a game.  They tend to stand out, imo.  In forming team super premade, who really stands out?  And as you indicate that you think all are tier 1 in GM, apparently no one stands out... and part of the tier 1 definition is "players shine as individuals" and "do not depend on a specific team or teammate to do well."  I'm assuming what I'm really saying here might be confused, so I'll make another effort to clarify if needed.  Suffice to say, if GM is full of tier 1's, then surely they will shine outside of GM where they don't have the benefit of team super premade.  

@Pacov 

All in good fun with the GM Tier 1 thing -

Let's look at the member list:

Janook
Renz0kuken
NinkiCZ
McShane87
Hemp_Boy
Orcun
ProneG
Mithrandar
Morpheas768

Take out the people who are already tier 1 and you get:

Renz0kuken
Hemp_Boy
ProneG
Mithrandar
Morpheas768

I've PUG'd with all of these guys at one time or another and they are in the top 5-10% players.  I think they should be Tier 1, (with maybe a discussion about ProneG because I've only ever seen him play Erb and per your Tier criteria you have to excel at multiple DGs)

But if I'm understanding your argument you are saying these guys don't make Tier 1 because

1.  They play as a 'super-premade' with and against each other

2.  It's hard to stand out when everyone playing is extremely high-level

3.  You need to stand out to be Tier 1

Did I get that right? 

@ point 1, saying I understood it correctly - it's difficult for me to believe that these guys have issues playing without their teams.  I've seen them rock PUG games from both sides but aside from the gestalt you lack with a given player (I don't coordinate well with Cowbuttzex or Morpheas on my team, for example and I have no idea why) once you hit a certain level of play in this game you will carry that across teams.

@ point 2 and 3

So in a 3v3 Orcun/Mith/Janook vs Mcshane/Ninki/Renzokuken you are going to be looking at close-to-flawless play on all sides, but because no one player gets the majority of kills or damage, etc. none of them make T1?

Like I said, all in fun and with the understanding that no one really cares, just chewing the fat here

Are GM-Janook and Janook different people, or is he so awesome that he's in both tier 1 and tier 2?

Fair enough. 

See... right there is what I don't buy at all.  Close to flawless = near perfect = not what I've seen in these guys. Perhaps you played with them on perfect day and I missed it.  Or perhaps any of the replays that have been posted have shown someone with close-to-flawless play and I missed that as well.  I've seen solid play out of them in past, to be sure, but I don't have such a high opinion of them or anyone else (including myself) to consider someone's play to be close to flawless.  Perhaps all you are saying is that no one makes any stupid mistakes and equating that with "close to flawless."  Anyway, perhaps I'm just mincing terms here, so I'll move on.

re: point 2/3 - consider that in the matchup you mentioned Orcun/Mith/Janook vs Mcshane/Ninki/Renzokuken, who do you think will stand out?  Part of the tier 1 defintion (as written by me, of course):  "players shine as individuals, generally with a wide variety of characters and do not depend on a specific team or teammate to do well."  In that scenario, it surely is difficult to stand out if you consider the teams so evenly matched.  Anyway, I know... there are a lot of ways to look at that... more from me in a bit...

Good catch.  removed from tier 2.  I'm all for removing inactives if we are keeping this going.  If you see someone in the list that hasn't played in > 30 days, let me know and I'll remove.

Lol whoa easy on me Pacov.  I was leaving room for the discussion that you were so eager to have previously.  Based on the demigod list on his profile he is also a high percentage winner with unclean beast and torchbearer.  The thing is I've never had the pleasure of playing with him while he uses any other character besides Sedna and Oak, but there is evidence that he does; unlike with iamkira who only has one or two games with four other characters.  I assumed some of the clan pacov guys he plays more frequently with might say something about his abilities with other characters after I left the door open for it, hence creating discussion and making everyone happy, not sarcastic and sassy.

Honestly, I should be in tier0.  Out of the 20 people who still play this game I am definitely one of the top 20.

I'm suprizingly sassy today, so my apologies for that.  I'm not really trying to be rude here and your bringing up hedgie yet again did get him in the proper tier as far as I'm concerned, so kudos. 

Let's try a different angle, though.  What's so great about the people in GM that aren't in tier 1?

Close to flawless sounds about right.  These games would be at least an hour long with whichever sides unclean beast plays better eventually deciding it.  We still haven't got a 3 vs 3 of some combination of those guys vs you kalel, and trouser yet pacov.  Orcun, Renzo, and I got one in against kalel, trouser, and jongalt the other day but they only wanted to do random, and then when we tried to join again a second time they just closed it off and remade.  I think they need you to lead them into battle.

The best way to answer this would be to play a team, of any  3 of Mith, Renzo, magnus, morpheas.  But what do you want to see from them is another question?  We only let people into GM who we felt were on par with the original members.

I'm not sure what that would show.  If you let me choose a 3 man team out of those folks and I made my own 3 man team using non GM members, I'm reasonably confident my team would win the majority of the time.  Of course, that's just talk and we should put that to the test, but that wouldn't really disqualify them in any way from tier 1... you don't have to kick my butt to get into tier 1...

Fil26 should be in these tiers some place. He took advantage of some poor play by me recently and beat the hell out of me. I have only played him that one time recently though. Anyone else have insight?

I think what my clanmates want to say is that pretty much everyone in GM have about the same skill level of course we all have our bad days

I don't have a dog in this race, just talking it through.

I've never played a serious game with or against you, Pacov, and I'm looking at 4-8 games played per week at best throughout my time with Demigod, so I might just have a lower standard of near-flawless play ^^

As it is, I'm going to paraphrase myself from a much earlier comment in this thread:

"consistently brilliant team players who punish all opponent mistakes and have impeccable builds* and strategic objectives. (*Builds includes skill allocation, cit upgrades, equipment, and item choices.)"

Most of these guys seem to fit that standard, but again, I'm not too invested here.  I was more trying to get a handle on how you define the "stand-out Tier 1 player" in a game of players who are all at comparable high levels of play.  If at that level the determining factor is who has a slightly better UB then should we take everyone off Tier 1 who doesn't play UB?

Incidentally Kira tends to focus on one DG for long periods of time until he owns it.  He played Reg for a year or so before switching to UB.  Regardless of Kira's play, does that type of approach get less credit because it's deep rather than broad?

Oh and finally I vouch Fil26 and Axon for Tier 2

IMO random games are the best judge of skill, barring some incredibly OP set up, which sadly, happens frequently.

methinks I'm going to have to work on my internet tone today... not attempting to be accusatory or offensive.  But, for the sake of clarity with you, Ke5, I understand that you aren't taking shots at anyone here, etc.

I can certainly appreciate how you flesh this out here a bit more.  I tend to agree.  A tier 1 player should have this. 

Well, it certainly does get more challenging to determine tier 1 talent in high level games.  Especially in the circumstances that you've crafted in which all of the players are relatively even.  Its simply my thought that all players are not relatively even.  Some are more aggressive than others, so are better at specific characters than others, some have better map awareness, some are setting traps, some are coordinating players by setting up distractions while another teammate gets a key flag or portal, etc.  Anyway, its a number of factors... for me to personally identify someone I'd consider tier 1, I'd generally need to play with them and against them, etc.

Mmmmm I try to be modest when it comes to these things but I doubt you'd win majority of the time against them. Those 4 are tough to beat. I've played with these GM members for so long, I've gotten used to what each player is not so good with and stuff so I take that as an advatange. Gameplay wise, I'm not even good. I don't even hotkey to tp, I use my good old mouse to click and click away... to which magnus was appaled at. 

I also actually disagree with Shane. The clan's intention was never to recruit the best players. I just wanted to recruit players that we often play together with from pretty much day 1. I've met a few fresh faces along the way who have been extremely nice that I could not help but give them an offer to join the family.

PS. magnus is not part of this family until that tag is properly changed. Yes you heard me magnus. I'm not going easy on you anymore for all these days of hatred you've expressed towards me. 

 caps are for noobs

Demigod is so relaxing compared to hardcore strategy games. Your APM can be like 30 and you're totally fine. You don't even need to use keyboard shortcuts.

Ok then - best of three challenge issued.  Kalel/trouser/pacov vs magnus/morph/mith.  If we win, Ninki can eat:

if wrong I can eat:

We can table this specific discussion until after we get those games in. 

Anyone else have info about fil26?  Anything in particular stand out or he just strike you as a solid player?

don't tell hedgie that.

oh christ, the last time I played with mith he died 6 times as oak... ;(

Where is hedgie, I'll tell him.