How fun the game would be if the TITLE was...

I was placing a bet that it would be something related to Unclean Beast. It's good to see I won.

But just include Erebus for more fun.

If you are not beast, you are gonna fight against him to REDUCE his mana so he can't spit anymore and go back to base.

If you are not regulus, you are fighting against him to reduce his mana and waiting for him to bat swarm and RUN AWAY.

Either way, you can't kill and just wait for respawn.

BotF,,,, come on. Lets not use it for once in game.

Rook with 3100 health ,, come on. Regulus has less than half of that hp.

Erebus is not OP. He is just hard/impossible to kill. You really shouldn't get kills in demigod anyway, being unable to die is not the ruler of awesomeness.

BotF is fine. The issue is the hp flag + sigils on Cata. 

For example, trying going BotF on Mandala... it's stupid.

Levi? Staff of Renewel is better for all Assassins, even for Beast.

Crucible has alternative favor item choices as well, esp if you do 1v1.

I said fun & balanced game ..

If erebus and botf is fun and NOT boring for you, then i apologize.

I don't play Erebus. I enjoy playing against Erebus because it's an easy win.

You're thinking of Regulus, hedgie.

(P.S. Being non-killable doesn't make you OP as long as I get to stand on a flag.)

lol erebus is OP, as are oak and UB. 

You think half of the Demigods are OP.

Erebus isn't OP. He has sufficient counters.

It's not so much about pushing Erebus out of lanes(which is not impossible at all), or even killing him. It is his amazing ganking ability and Mass Charm(especially lategame/portal play) that makes him extremely powerful. And there is no reason to ever pick a weaker character like Regulus or The Torchbearer against Lord Erebus. You may stall him in the beginning, but he will break you level 5+.

The Unclean Beast is too strong, but we all know that and have read/heard the arguments countless times. Grasp, Ooze and Acclimation.

And Oak. The only thing that needs to be adressed is his Penitence, and Shield. Penitence needs to be toned down slightly in damage and snare. Shielded units should always be interruptable. Then Oak will be quite balanced. Don't know about minions.

I agree with awuffleablehedgie on The Blood of the Fallen.

I'd also like to say; I think the way to go for the game in general, is to nerf these so called Tier 1, and not buffing weaker characters, that would only cause power creep. As said before, there is already very much damage in the game already.

Erebus is a great ganker. That's why you must learn to have situational awareness to prevent being ganked. Several dgs can easily push him out of a lane. If you nerf batswarm, you make him boring and very weak. Mass Charm requires the most skill points in the game for a 3 second stun.

Beast is OP. I think most people agree with that.

Shield 3 does need to be interruptable. I don't think Penitence needs a nerf.

He has great ganking ability, yes. So you minimize exposure, simple as that. Erebus is a beat against the weaker demigods, don't get me wrong. But of the upper-tier characters.... no, not really. Certainly Oak early game but that's true for everyone. And he can fight a Beast without a monk too. But that's pretty much it.

Oak has a great powerlevel and I'd like to see all demigods along his lines. Sure, he has a weak early game but a great endgame, and EVERY SINGLE spell has a use. Every. Damn. One. That's awesome! I'd like to see all demigods in Sedna, Oak and Rook's power-level where they all had useful skills, multiple potential builds (esp on maps that are not Cataract) and good counters but they can still counter their counters.

Pentitence is great after you get 4 points in it, but it is by far and away the worst alpha strike with only one point. 500 mana for 200 damage and a 10% snare? Serious? Horrifically mana inefficient. Even then, Mist and Heal III negate Pent so there are counters out there for it it's not some one-shot wonder.

Really, this game is balanced. But this is how you balance it:

First, fix the bugs in Uberfix

Demigod Specific:

Erebus:

- Remove the snare on Bite OR increase the mana costs of all Bites by 50.

- Increase mana costs of all Batswarms by 100, increase Bat Swarm III's damage because it's useless at this point.

Beast:

- Reduce his armor per level by 3 (32 -> 29)

- Increase the amount of damage Beast does to himself with Ooze by 5/10/15/20. (Currently he deals 35n damage to enemies and 10 + 10n damage to himself where n is the skill level. Make it 10 + 15n instead).

- Increase Spit cooldown by 1.5 seconds (can't spit every fireball, only every other) reduce mana costs by 25/50/75/100 to compensate

- Acclimation reduces it by "only" 20% for 5 seconds, instead of 40% for 5. Also make it not reduce the damage taken from the first spell.

- Make Foul Grasp give Stun Immunity

Oak:

- Shield III - lose stun immunity, gain +600 HP instead (like Shield IV) . You can use it offensively to clear debuffs or stop nukes better now rather than only using it to escape

- Shield IV - gains stun immunity

DA:

- Increase base movement speed to 6.3

- Make Demon Speed give 1.5/3/4.5 mana per second

- Reduce cooldowns by 1 second

- Increase base hp and mana by 100

Queen:

- Reduce Shambler Mana Costs

- Buff Entourage back to how it was before and then make it a little better

- Uproot needs to have a longer range so you can Uproot an enemy tower on your own flag

- Compost needs to have an added benefit that buffs Queen. Currently it works as an alternative to Entourage and buffs Uproot at the same time.

Sedna:

- Fix Yetis so they don't suck ass (I propose having 1/1/2/2 super-Yetits that are basically demigods without skills. They run around with 2/2.5/3/3.5k hp and do decent damage and start off with Cleave. Yetis V makes them randomly run faster sometimes because nothing is more hilarious than fast yetis).

- Increase her armor per level by like 2 so she scales better against giants/minions

- Increase base hp by 100 (see monk nerf below)

Occ:

- Apply bug fixes in Uber Fix

- Make the Lightning Balls last forever and do AoE autoattack (like Queen's cleave)

Rook:

- Make God Strength get a + Armor bonus

- Improve Structure Transfer... Make it a 1 second cast instead of channel but then increase the mana costs?

TB:

- Boost Fireball by 50 damage all levels

Sigils:

+30% bonus for 40 seconds instead of a +50% bonus for 20

Monks:

Halve the weapon damage they deal and make them heal for 9/11/13/15 instead of 10/12/13/15 (Sedna: 13/16/19/22/ instead of 15/17/20/22)

The issue with BotF + Monks is that ... if you get Monks you have no hp so you have to get BotF to compensate. Monks do a ton of damage AND heal you a ton (~300 over a fight, then maybe 200 damage) which is better than banded. Make monks do less damage and heal you less early-game and all of a sudden getting Banded + Scaled Helm is a much more viable choice for certain builds and demigods. (maybe you save for Clerics instead of buying Monks and then selling them later).

Cataract:

- Replace Fortitude Flag with a Debillitating Flag

- Flip around Darkness' gold/celerity flag so the map is symmetrical

AND IT IS DONE

Regulus doesn't get any buffs on your list? Wat.

For Regulus, one step in the right direction is making MotB an interrupt when cast. He could also use a base speed of 6.3 and higher base health (perhaps 75-100 per level). Make snipe a 3 skill point ability with the last point being identical to having the current 4th level. This will allow him to max out MotB, Mines, and Snipe by level 10.

I'd agree with removing the armor reduction from Erebus' bite, but the slow has to stay. It fits with his theme.

As an UB player primarily, it hurts to see him nerfed, but I think your nerf is correct.

Shield IV doesn't need stun immunity, wtf. Shield 3 doesn't need to add a heal. You get an extra second of invincibility for your skill point.

Giving Yetis cleave is exactly what I want to happen.

I agree with increasing DA's base speed. I don't think he needs mana regen on demon speed. He needs to either generate more base MPS or have his spells reduced in cost. Warp Area also needs a buff in the number of targets it hits. I'm sick of being stuck using the goddamn EoM on him. He could also use a slight HP increase. He doesn't need to be so weak at level 1.

Rook desperately needs God Strength to be an armor-giving ability. Good idea. I don't know what to do with Structural Transfer. It would need a hell of a mana cost increase to make up for having just a 1 second cast. More importantly, Rook needs his base speed increased to 5.8 or 6.0.

I don't play QoT, so I will defer to your opinion.

Fireball could use a slight cast time reduction, perhaps 0.1-0.2 seconds. I'd also like to see his form-switching time reduced to 1 second.

Just take sigils out completely. I need my 3rd slot for a Wand of Speed, Orb of Defiance, mana pot, artifact combat health pot, or Magnus Rod. There are so many other great options for the 3rd slot that sigils really need to go. I'm not sure if your solution is that big of a nerf.

I'm not sure what to do about monks, but your solution sounds like a step in the right direction.

Good list provided by awuffleablehedgie, and good points made by him and Epiphenomenon. The Health flag on Cataract really has to go. Sigils need to be either removed, or have a functionality change. I think the design of the item as of now, is a bad thing for this game. I agree the state of the game (balance wise) is not as bad as some may make it seem, but these changes are certainly a step in the right direction to making it a lot more better. Perhaps an idea for a mod?

One thing on The Queen of Thorns though. Maybe it's just me, but I think Bramble Shield has to scale better lategame.

You forgot NO PREMADE

I put balance. If i host, I always balance percentage to have FUN game . I don't kick people cause they have 0% or 80%.

Actually I tend to be against high % players(or good players). Cause I DON'T CARE IF I LOSE OR WIN. just want to have fun game and learn from good players.

YOu see premade sucks so bad against good players cause they never learn

No. Regulus doesn't need a change (except to his level 15 skills, but I ignored those for everyone, not just Regulus). The issue is that in the current meta (3v3 Cataract) has several design elements that bring out Regulus' flaws:

- Portal-ninja'ing -> Interrupts are super-important -> No interrupt -> Shitty endgame

- He is a direct-damage skill-based demigod. Direct Damage is best countered with lots of HP and Monks. That is what everyone does and so renders Regulus ineffective. This is the same issue that TB has except TB has infinite mana and awesome AoE so he can push creepwaves like a boss and eventually pushes everyone off of a flag. The HP flag on Cataract exaberates the hp-stacking issue even more. Include the swap out for the Debillitating flag and now Snipe is doing more damage which is a HUGE buff to Regulus since it makes his snipes take out a large chunk of hp.

- Regulus is already the best counter to Rook, Rook is very strong on Cataract. He also counters TB and DA very well.

- The map design of Cataract means that in order to get off a snipe he needs to give up a flag. This does not occur in 4v4 Levi or 5v5 Zik.

- Mana flag is useless for him, he needs a mana per second flag so he can spam snipes all day.

4v4 Levi Regulus is extremely strong, possibly even "mandatory". This is the same for Zik. Regulus is perfectly balanced for those maps because portal locking is not nearly as prevalant, and he can chain-snipe without getting out of position. Cataract is a map that Regulus was not made for, that is all.

If we were playing a FPS, 4v4 Capture the flag, you wouldn't want the two people on your team to be snipers sitting on the back of the map. No, you'd want one guy at your flag protecting it and then three people going to get the enemy's flag. It's the exact same concept with having Regulus in 3v3 Cataract. His very design concept makes him useless for 2v2 and 3v3 games. That isn't a flaw in his character or skills, just the meta.

You clearly aren't aware of how little hp you get per level... quote: "higher base health (perhaps 75-100 per level)" I'm reading this as not increasing his initial HP like what I did with DA, but increasing his health per level, correct me if I'm wrong.

Rook has the most health per level in the game... at 150 per level. If you were to increase Reg's health per level by 75 it would go from 105 to 180. To compare, UB is 135. Regulus is not a tank. He is not meant to be a tank. And if he standing on a flag in melee range, you are playing him wrong OR he is over buffed. It still goes against his design principal (doing damage from long range without exposing himself).

If you really wanted to buff Regulus, make his mines work with BotS. Now you solved his biggest issue on 3v3 Cata: mana. Now he can hp/speed stack like a TB and remain useful past level 8. 

A second step would be increasing his natural mana per second by about .05 per level.

The third and final step would be for MotB to increase cooldowns by 15/30/45% (even this is countered by TB/UB/Queen by changing forms, Erebus with Mist, and Sedna with Heal III). Regulus is a ranged character, he is not Oak with a Pentitence. You would be using it to punish the person who is locking in your face or teleporting away from you, or using their alpha-strike on you (which is what it already does with it's snare), not to stop them from doing it.

Mark vs. Pentitence. Bolds indicate differences

Mark is a .1 second cast, 20 second cooldown with a range of 20. It does 400/600/800 damage (AoE: 8/10/12), with 20/40/60% snare for 5 seconds. It's mana cost is 600/775/950. You can get it at levels 5/10/15.

Penitence is a .1 second cast, 7 second cooldown with a range of 20. It does 200/400/600/800 single-target damage, and snares and increases damage for 7/10/13/16% for 5/6/7/7 seconds . It's mana cost is 450/550/650/750. You can get it at levels 1/4/7/10. It also interrupts.

They do roughly the same amount of damage, though Mark does AoE(!). Mark snares a lot better but Pentitence increases damage you can't really say that one is always better than the other. Pent is spammable due to a low cooldown, Mark is not. Their mana costs are relatively equal when you factor in the AoE component of Mark. Pentitence does damage instantly, Mark does damage later on and it still does damage even if you use Heal III/Mist on it (it just doesn't hurt the person you put it on. Hurts everyone around them though).

Really, Mark is roughly equal to Pentitence if you factor out the much longer cooldown. Renewel + Celerity flag helps this, but that's really the only bad thing about Mark. Making Mark an interrupt makes it stronger than Pentitence (in my opinion) and Penitence is already a very strong ability as it is.

I used to think the same thing, but the armor debuff is a more important debuff than the snare. I don't think Erebus is overpowered, Bite is just a little too much on the strong side. The snare is the less important of the two, so it goes. Even then, I still think that it really just needs a slight mana cost increase. It is currently one of the cheapest alpha-strikes in the game and it is one of the largest swings (500 at level 1 with 350 mana).

However, Oak is still a very weak demigod 1v1, unless he has spirits. If he has spirits, then he gave up something else (Pentitence, Divine Justice, Shield or Surge of Faith). If he has spirits he then also sucks in 3v3 clusterfucks (or he is like level 15). He doesn't need to be nerfed 1v1 (this change actually buffs it) and he doesn't need to be nerfed 3v3 either (this change nerfs). Once again, the strength of stun immunity is shown by the flaw of Cataract's map design because of the exposed portals..

Oak is perfectly balanced with Stun Immunity on Levi or Zikk where "true" ninja capping is virtually impossible and the only flags that are on constant lock-down are the side portals and that's only when catapults start coming out. Delaying the "inevitable" is to balance Oak's level 7-9.

Demon Speed is straight-up inferior compared to Fire Aura, Permafrost, Inner Beast and Inner Grace (the other + movement speed passives) since it ONLY provides movement speed bonuses and only to himself. Giving it a slight mana per second boost makes it more attractive, esp in conjunction with his already improved base speed. He would become the fastest demigod on the map, esp if his level 15 skill procs.

Even if you improve his base MPS (realize that the BEST level-20 mps is Beast at 6.4. Base MPS is always wayyyy inferior to items, even just Scaled Helm) he will have horrific mana issues. Also, the nature of his skills (high cooldown, high mana, but very low cast time) will always make EoM the best favor item for him.

The biggest issue with Warp Area is that you have no control over where he ends up and his level 15 Warp Area skill sometimes double-targets creeps that were blown away. Even then, including Warp Area before level 10 is a mistake unless you are using BotS.

I included a slight base HP increase (100).

Think of it as a Bite that only affected friendly or enemy towers.

Ability | "Swing" by level (Swing is the sum of damage dealth plus damage recovered) | Mana Costs

Bite | 500 / 850 / 1200 / 1550  | 350 / 500 / 650 / 800 * Also snares and reduces armor

Heal | 600 / 900 / 1200 / 1700 | 375 / 500 / 625 / 750 * Levels 3 and 4 remove debuffs. Level 4 is AoE 200 damage

Mulch | 1000 / 2000 / 3000 | 700 / 700 / 700 * Assumes eating 1 Shambler summoned with Summon Shambler I. Damage is AoE

Struct Trans | 1600 / 2400 / 3200 / 4000 | 265 / 375 / 490 / 610 * 10 seconds channeled ability

Note thatyou pay no mana if you get a normal ability interrupted but pay full mana costs for a channeled ability. You also take full damage while sucking on a tower, which makes it a lot worse as well. However, you CAN do it on your own tower, but that also costs mana for yourself, similar to Summon Shambler.

I propose: 1 second cast time

Swing, so, you deal half that damage and heal the same amount: 800 / 1200 / 1600 / 2000 | 350 / 425 / 500 / 575

The major points of balance are that it's a cast time, and can only be used on towers. Not 100% sure on the numbers, but I don't think they are high enough it would be very, very stupid to level 1 try to eat an enemy tower because you would take far more damage than you would deal. It would be very useful for using on an enemy tower while alone, however, as well as using it on your own while being ganked and waiting for an ally to teleport in.

The Armor bonus for God Strength would probably be something like 100/200/300. Nothing huge. It's something you would get when faced against minion builds since Trebuchet is useless against minion builds, as is Boulder Roll. (You might get one point in GS and then get Struct Trans instead of Treb + Boulder Roll before level 10, I guess).

Making Rook fast is a horrible, horrible, horrible idea. Horrible. I can't believe you would ever say that. I am goin to leave it at that.

Yes, his ice->fire time needs to be decreased, I agree to that. Fireball cast-time reduction requires a re-animation however, and so we can't include that. I'd be hesitant to drop it's cooldown because it is also currently one of the most efficient mana/damage alpha strikes end-game. It's his mid-game which needs improvement as well as the fact Fireball I is a joke.

30% isn't HUGE enough for them to be as crazy as they can be now. Remember that their monks would heal less, and 20% end game is like ... 1000 hp. Throw in monk heals and that becomes 1100. 2 abilities. That's a pretty big nerf since that's 5 seconds left of life to try to kill you (assuming you aren't sigil'd). Sigils would still be important but running away would be a much more of a viable option. 

A few items would need to be changes (like Unbreakables should lose 200 hp and not give regen. A few of the gloves could be improved a bit, etc).

He is not OP only if you do couter build

Other than that Erebus is OP

There are 10 demigods. 3/10 is not half. Just thought I'd throw that out there.  

P.S. OMIGOD HEDGIE

on zik and levi portal locking is exactly as important as on cataract when the catapults join the waves so a silencing/pouncing sedna will always be better than a reg without a stun. also his big flaw is that he cant hold a flag on his own and you lose games because of exactly that point.

imo there shouldnt be that many stuns and interrupts in this game. also all snares should be slightly less efficient.

i think that a big enough ub nerf would be to make grasp a non stunning and not interrupting ability that works like bite. erebus bite shouldnt have a snare ability. the bite is to make his minions do more damage and give him health. penitence doesnt give health so it snares and does a bit more damage. also its not as efficient as bite from the beginning. i would even be ok with having removed interrupt from pen and make it deal more damage!

generally i believe there should be some tiny changes to make the game less about killing enemies but to be controlling the field and have many little fights you can easily escape from. so it would be more strategic and less ego-shooter with a top down view.

BOTF is OP, and anyone who doesn´t agree with this is simply ignorant. When an item is taken by 80% of the players regardless of character, then it indicates something.

Though while UB is certainly insanely OP and anyone that doesn´t agree with this hasen´t played this game on high level, being he should either be taken by both teams, or one team should play an anti-UB build(Rook+ pushers, and support), which leave them open for UB's teammates. But I don´t think erebus is really as OP as the guy claims. Certainly erebus is far better than squishies and a lot easier and flexible than queen/sedna in raw power he loses or ties to pretty much all of the competetive demigods(sedna, rook,qot, oculus, UB). If you exclude erebus you probably should exclude a good deal of them too.

Also hedgie, seriously... you're claiming that shield is a good skill for oak? You could argue that's not OP(which I don't agree with btw) but it absolutely screws over gameplay, making oak or a teammate practically IMMORTAL. Being permanently immortal is broken.

Regulus is a good counter to Rook?? Absolutely not. Yes he can destroy rooks towers from a safe distance, but in that time he isn't doing anything, and Rook can easily rebuild them(with staff). Regulus right now is the worst demigod in the entire selection, being a low health low damage character without an interrupt(and a whole slew of other design faults), having only  abilities that are OKish. Regulus is also a very bad counter to DA and TB. DA can easily warp kill him, and TB has more damage, more health, more mana, and more team utility, and oh yeah a stun and an interupt.

P.S. Sacrificing DJ and surge for spirits is not a very high price to pay, given the insane damage they do. Although due to UB being so incredibly OP(ooze>minions), it doesnt really matter.

P.P.S. I've been playing LoL(waiting for a balance patch) for sometime now, but I'd like to play some Demigod too. Is there a team/clan I can join?

as other people don't know ub is OP because they haven't played in high level...

lifekatana you haven't seen regulus in high level

Depends on the flag... I can hold my own as reg against most UBs(In a lane in cata), depending on if they know my playstyle or if they know reg really well. But if I have to hold a portal against a demigod I can't because that means flag going neutral = loss.

Reg can and will push UB out of a lane especially if its a spit ub. How? Mark + Mines, you mark they spit drop mines on them (they should be too slow to avoid them) that alone does quite a bit of damage then though you stay out of melee range and attack them then pull back just into tower range as mark/shrapnel mines (if you have them) wear off. As soon as they come in to spit mark while they are in tower range (most players are willing to take one tower hit for spit) then you rinse and repeat. If this happens twice in a row the UB has to leave, use a pot, have a sedna in lane, or well nope thats it. Also you should have killed the monk with mines+mark or just AA'ed it to death during this battle.

At level 11 with Shrapnel mines and Mark 2 you can force ub out in one go if they haven't been fed and have bought cit upgrades.